Earnhardt Jr. crash

[Vicki]

Slightly off-topic but are we talking about the same person whose father died from a fracture to the base of his skull? Just recognised the name and it reminded me.

[Kicking-back]

Er, yes.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by pounetbf
Tim

I have been marshall 10 years, including in Le Mans, and you have perfectly discribed the job.

congratulation

And a lot of critics come from those who have never practiced but know everything better than anybody else...
(they are generally working for "the media's")

To Give Credit Where it Is Due:

73_Gstock was kind enough to allow me to attend the US Grand Prix in Indianapolis with him in June (he had an extra ticket)...

He is a corner marshall...

I asked him tons of questions about how corner marshalls, how they work, their responsibilities in given situations, etc....

I learned more in two days than I could have in a lifetime of experiences.....

73_Gstock was my source....

But the final note...I have seen course marshalls go into a car and rishk their safety to assist a driver who could not extricate himself from a burning car...

[Nordic]

As Adam has explained earlier, I WAS NOT HAVING A GO AT THE MARSHALS, I was just commenting on the scene as I saw it on the video clip, no one should be in any doubt about the bravery of these people. But that does not mean sometimes things don't go to plan.

Dale jnrs dad was killed by a fracture to the base of his skull, just at the time the HANS system was beening trailed, Dale snr refused to wear one.

[Kicking-back]

That last point is tragically true.

Standards of the seat and of the seatbelt installation he had would probably not have been allowed in any other series either.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by Nordic
As Adam has explained earlier, I WAS NOT HAVING A GO AT THE MARSHALS, I was just commenting on the scene as I saw it on the video clip, no one should be in any doubt about the bravery of these people. But that does not mean sometimes things don't go to plan.

Dale jnrs dad was killed by a fracture to the base of his skull, just at the time the HANS system was beening trailed, Dale snr refused to wear one.

Sorry if my comments construed that I was taking a shot at you, Nordic...

it certainly was not intended, and I do apologize to you...

I was hacked off over stupid comments made last night on SpeedChannel by viewers that called in about the incident...and did not intend for it to be a shot at you....

From my own experiences of watching corner marshalls and road racing, I thought that they did act as they were trained to....and I thought their response was rather quick....

Keep in mind that the FIa and Formula One consider 2 minutes to be an acceptable response time....

I can tell you that crews atht eh Indianapolis 500 and in the IRL respond MUCH faster than 2 minutes!!!

But the Indy 500 and the IRl have many, many safety crews (in NOMEX, etc) at locations every 1/4 mile or so on a race circuit....

They arrive within 30 seconds of a car coming to a stop after an accident...and they are all over the car immediately....

But it is a much different scenario to do that on an oval than it is on a road course....

[Nordic]

But the final note...I have seen course marshalls go into a car and rishk their safety to assist a driver who could not extricate himself from a burning car

Likewise Tim, why these guys wish to stand in such danger is beyond me, however before better training in the 70's & 80's there are also tragic cases where marshals have appeared to freeze,Mike Salmons firery crash where it was left to a photographer to pick up an extinguisher and tackle the fire, Niki Laudas 'ring crash where other drivers fought the fire I am sure there are many others.

I am sure modern marshals are far better trained. But every crash should be examined and lessons learned,if better technique's can be used then they should.

[Tim Northcutt]

I would agree, Nordic...especially with the last statement....

We can always learn more and improve on what we currently do...in all aspects of life...

and this would be especially true when the lives of others are at stake...as is the case in racing...

[pounetbf]

Originally posted by Nordic

I am sure modern marshals are far better trained. But every crash should be examined and lessons learned,if better technique's can be used then they should.

I don't know for ALMS, but in France all marshalls are volunteers (and generally it cost them some money to be in the race, at least for fuel...)

le mans is interesting and usefull, as there is a mix of marshalls comming from different places and countries. There is an exchange of good practices.

A frend of mine has been marshall in Canada F1 grand prix, and came back with a lot of good ideas.

[Alan Green]

Originally posted by pounetbf
I don't know for ALMS, but in France all marshalls are volunteers (and generally it cost them some money to be in the race, at least for fuel...)

le mans is interesting and usefull, as there is a mix of marshalls comming from different places and countries. There is an exchange of good practices.

All marshals / corner workers / course workers (depending on your country) are volunteers, it's only the specialist series that have their own safety crews that go with the series (such as NASCAR, IRL, CART). F1 marshals are all volunteers, as are ALMS / ELMS. Marshals choose where and when they want to go depending on what's racing or when they're available.

Le Mans is a good experience to see how marshals from other countries deal with incidents (such as being stood on the track with the flags rather than staying on a flag point, or using the 'trolley' type fire extinguishers, neither of which we do in the UK).

As for this incident, I've only seen a still photo so can't really comment, but I remember being at Donington a few years ago when we had a Marcos hit a tyre wall backwards, rupture the tank, and go up in flames. You do have a moment of shock before you can do anything, and like someone said earlier, we are only wearing fire Resistant overalls, not the full NOMEX suits that the drivers wear. We would have about 20 seconds protection, where the drivers in FIA spec suits have about 3 minutes IIRC. The rule we use is if you need overalls because you're going to get burnt, you're too close.

Al.

[Liz]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
Liz:

You are just flat wrong. Americans do not "file suit whenever anything happens, just to keep their hand in."

I certainly hope this is just an example of poorly written sarcasm as there is no truth to this statement. If this is not sarcasm, then can you provide any facts that would support your statement?.

I have worked for American lawyers for 13 years and Canadian lawyers for 6 years and counting, which means I have been intimately involved in the legal profession for about the past 20 years. I think that qualifies me to have an opinion on who sues whom for what purpose.

I fully expect suit to be filed against Corvette, Infineon Raceway, the people who made the racing suit, and probably several other organizations and persons. You may recall that Earnhardt Sr.'s family filed a massive lawsuit that nearly ruined Bill Simpson before it was proven that the seat belts he manufactured were not at fault.

I know that you, John, are convinced that I know absolutely nothing about anything, but unless you are a lawyer or work for lawyers, I think I am far better qualified on this subject than you are.

Kindly climb down.

[pounetbf]

let me make a comment, (or put my finger betwwen the hammer and the anvil ! )

I don't know how it is in US but in France it will be very simple.

- The driver shall and must keep the control of his car.
- Dale J has done a spin before hitting a wall
- so D E J has done a mistake when driving (probably reminding the tyres where cold and the car heavyer than in the practice)and lost this control.
- so DEJ is responsible of what happened.

This close the case !

[Bob Riebe]

It might be that way in the US if the judges rather than trying to implement social change, would tell the lawyers that bring trash into the courts, "If you bring this kind of garbage into my court house again, you will be sitting in jail for contempt of court."

"Those were the days my friend...."

Bob

[JohnSSC]

Thank you for filling in some bits on your career. I see no real need though to post my own resume here. The point I was rebutting was your contention that Americans are "litigation happy." Despite a close association with the legal field, no empirical data was presented in the post to support the contention and so far, still has not.

IIRC, the Earnhardt family did not sue Simpson Safety Equipment - or anyone else. NASCAR's preliminary findings which leaked to the press indicated belt failure. Which, for a number of reasons that have been published elsewhere was true but not as a result of a design or manufacturing defect, therefore it was indeed demonstrated that the belt itself was not at fault.

The only suits filed that I recall were those to release the coroner's reports/records which in the State of Florida are available for public inspection for everyone's autopsy but Dale Earnhardt, Sr. due to passage of special legislation at the State level.

The resultant bad publicity though did damage Mr. Simpson's reputation, I agree.

While I doubt that there will be the flurry of lawsuits projected in this case (Dale Jr's incident) I will be happy to watch the newslines for word of that. You seem very certain that this will occur though so I wonder what sources (which would of course remain un-named) have tipped you off on this?

I do not feel any great compunction to climb down off of anything as I have not climbed onto anything (I am wary of unsupported heights!). As a poster, a factual contention was made implying that not only would there be wholesale legal action by also to generalize and paint the average American as a plaintiff-in-waiting.

No factual basis was presented to support this, even though it was presented on the Forum AS fact. Further, when verification was requested, the response was that I "climb down." I would suggest that when one represents oneself as a practicing journalist (thereby implying that certain standards of research have been followed) that that adds an air of legitimacy to what that individual says/writes. When unsupported by any empirical data, what is said or written is then opinion, no more or less valid than anyone else's.

This being a discussion Forum then, when an opposing opinion is presented or an inquiry to clarify the poster's statement is made, the only purpose is to continue the discussion rather than to demonstrate an ability to climb up on anything.

Mods, I apologize for the length of the response and if I tripped over any of the Forum FAQs, it was unintentional and I apolgize in advance there as well.

[73_Gstock]

Tim,
Thanks for the kind words.

Alan Green,
You are absolutely right on the cross training thing. As an American marshal, I had the chance to work at three different tracks for four days in England this spring/summer (Oulton, Cadwell, and twice at Lydden). I learned a lot about marshalling there, some for my own benifit and some for my fellows over there (especially Lydden). One thing that the MSA/BMMC does do well is train and step people up. Something that may not work for the SCCA (due to numbers and different ways of staffing tracks).

I didn't catch Wind Tunnel last night, but I will certainly try to call in and am composing an email right now for the show.

And as an aside, I'm still relatively new at this marshal / corner working thing. I've only been doing it for a little over two years. I have had some really great teachers at Lake Erie Communications. I still learn something new every weekend I'm on post.

[Kicking-back]

Well said, JohnSSC.

It would be a ridiculous move to sue the makers of the racing suit - as it did its job!

[Mags]

And if he had been wearing his nomex underwear, he wouldn't have been burnt on his legs. It was reported on the local news by a doctor JR was not wearing all of his protective gear. The local Sacramento TV news.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by Mags
And if he had been wearing his nomex underwear, he wouldn't have been burnt on his legs. It was reported on the local news by a doctor JR was not wearing all of his protective gear. The local Sacramento TV news.

That's plain stupid....I don't car how hot it is outside....

The proper gear can't protect you if you don't wear it....

[JohnSSC]

It never ceased to amaze me during my too short career as a driver how many drivers would do anything to avoid wearing the proper safety equipment, or, after spending mega $$$ on the car balk at a few bucks for a decent helmet or firesuit/underwear.

I never planned on having an accident - I just figured if some other knucklehead did something goofy I didn't want to get hurt!

I am not familiar with NASCAR rules but until recently helmets/fireproof coveralls/underwear were recommended but not mandated. Jr may have found out the hard way that old habits are not always good habits. I am glad that it was not a harder lesson.

[Mags]

I bet he will wear all of it from now on. And I'm glad he wasn't more seriously hurt.

[kdr]

so if he wasn't wearing the proper protective equipment - will he be able to sue himself?

[JohnSSC]

He is American....

[Mags]

Now now. Just because some American woman sues McDonalds and wins for having a TOO hot cup of coffee...

[JohnSSC]

She did, she won a large award which was chopped down severely on review, but not before her case gets "quoted" left and right without bothering to check the facts.

Stella Liebeck is the individual who sued McDonalds. She was burned by coffee served at 180 - 190 degrees which can cause a 3rd degree burn in 2 - 7 seconds. Her burns were over 6 percent of her body and required 2 years of treatment including skin grafts. McDonald's refused an offer to settle for $20,000 in medical costs.

From 1982 to 1992 MCDonald's coffee burned 700 others, some slightly, some more seriously resulting in a number of other suits.

Stella was awarded $200,000 in compensatory damages which was reduced 20% to $160,000 to take into account her own negligence. She was awarded $2.7 million in punitive damages which the judge reduced to $480,000.

Stella and Ms. Liebeck then settled out-of-court for an undisclosed sum.

This information, which took me about 2 minutes to find via a Search Engine near you is available at: www.StellaAwards.com.

Mods, this is a verifiable item and I believe in no way places the Forum in any legal jeopardy.

To anyone else, before quoting the "urban legend" as fact, often a quick search will surface the true story and lead you to what is actually an interesting free site.

[Emfa]

Originally posted by Mags
And if he had been wearing his nomex underwear, he wouldn't have been burnt on his legs. It was reported on the local news by a doctor JR was not wearing all of his protective gear. The local Sacramento TV news.

Yes... just plain stupid. Unfortunately this doesn't really surprise me. Earlier this year during a Nascar in-car telecast I was stunned to see DE Jr driving without gloves. Yes, you heard correctly - no gloves! Hopefully this incident will lead him to think a little more about personal safety.