2015 Moto GP...

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by chunder

Staggeringly shameful news really.

I feel so sorry for Dovi, he has outperformed Spies and Cal most of the year and now doesnt get a chance on the factory bike.

I think Valentino's reputation is far below where it was 4 years ago where he was top of the world and the GOAT.

GOAT no more I am afraid he has looked at sea for the past two years and running back to Yamaha to get beat every week by Lorenzo is rather sad!!

Hes just going downhill now, and the guy not long ago said MotoGP is boring, I wont leave Ducati , Stoner won coz of the bike and or I'll try and make the Ducati work....Then he quits to join Yamaha, after only 2 seasons. I guess they were right after all.....you get the best Equipment, you get the best results. Goat? more like a Clown.

[EGG]

I think the reason a number of people aren't interested in Dovi is he had three years on the HRC bike and didn't exactly wring it's neck. He just rode it as though mediterranean sponsorship money would keep him employed.

He's getting results now, fair enough, but if there are only four competitive bikes on the grid, I'd like to see them go to people who are absolutely going to ride for the win.

I do have to chuckle though, Pedrosa's 2013 just nose-dived.

[chunder]

I would say exactly the same about Pedrosa, yes he wins occasionally, but Dovi is a big lad and probably not really suited to the Honda, do you seriously think he would not be close to winning on a factory Yam?

Pedrosa has never looked like a title contender in all his time on arguably the best bike out there, and despite having everyone on his side for years looks like he is being lined up for the sack with Marquez coming if he carries on the same way next year.

As for Rossi you cant blame him for not wanting to ride that heap anymore, but his star has waned considerably as a result. here once he was considered a shining light, now I don;t really rank him much higher than a Sheene or Criville. Never beat anyone decent and on the same bike as Lorenzo and Stoner was not as quick as either.

And do you seriously think Jorge would agree to this if he didn't think he would batter him anyway? Would you as a likely double world champion allow Rossi in your team if you didn't think you could beat him?

He isn't worried at all believe me!

[jhansen]

So, it really is all about the bike afterall. Rossi did all of his winning on a very good, if not the best bike in the paddock. The last two years were an eye opener for him. Now he is moving back to Yamaha, which is a good bike. But this time, he'll be in Lorenzo's team on Lorenzo's bike and possibly without all of his entourage. Could be another eye opener for him.

My biggest concern is that next year the racing spectacle could be even worse.

[gomick]

Well, the series probably needs Rossi on a Yamaha, not running 10th on a Duke. Do we think Dorna made the push?

[chunder]

Let's take stock

Vale won on a 125 Aprilia, learned for a year, won a race and then won the title easily.
Best bike? maybe, he poached the best engineers even back then as his talent allowed him to.

250, he did the same, learned once then dominated.

Similar in 500, but really who was he up against. While Mick was racing there was no opposition. Max now and again, Luca now and again, and Schwantz after 93 was an injured spent force.

On the NSR he had to beat Max, thats it really. Tady still won races as did Alex and Barros/Loris, Vale was not dominant in winning as Mick was. But he was playing and enjoying the game.

then on to the RCV, utter domination, rivalled only by a man who had previously shown nothing in any class and found inner strength from his team mate dying, Sete.

Went to Yamaha, but only under the proviso that the bike was capable of winning from the first race. Read the biography, that was kept very much under wraps, that Yamaha was designed to be capable of winning from the off, it was tested with 4 different engine configurations for Lords sake, who else has even done that in a first test! He would have still signed for them, but he really did put huge pressure on Yamaha to make that bike better in 04, its all in the book.

OK, no one else did anything on it, but lets face it, Abe, Checa and a very young Melandri??

He dominated from then on again, until the 800's and Stoner/Lorenzo. these guys beat him fair and square in the end, made him move on.

He got on the Duke and was, for him, hopeless, no worse than Melandri, Sete or Bayliss but his reign has been tainted.

I now rank Stoner and Lorenzo as better, they have consistently been able to beat each other on the best bikes. I rank Stoner higher coz he won on a Duke, all he hasn't really done is dominate the smaller classes as Rossi did.

But in pure top class terms, you have to rate Stoner as the better rider, not man, not anything else, but rider. Rossi is moving because he can't fix the bike and doesn't want to, he is getting older and wants to win again.

Can he? Of course, but does anyone here think he can beat Jorge?

[gomick]

Bayliss won on the Duke, Rossi hasn't (yet)
I don't think anyone thinks he can beat Jorge, be interesting if he can tho - time will tell...

[GORDON STREETER]

It's a shame it's happened like it has, if you ask a person in the street to name a motorcycle racer those that know any at all would probably say "Rossi".
He's been good for the sport and we shouldn't knock him IMHO.

[chunder]

Not a question of knocking Gord

Just pointing out that in the last few years his start has dropped from this high to the same as everyone else.

And gom, Bayliss won on a 990 same as Loris! And he only won coz Ducati let Tardozzi and his WSB guys set the bike up like troy wanted it, rather than how Preziosi wanted it.

Sound familiar?

[GORDON STREETER]

Agreed Chunder, I suppose it's like anybody in the public eye, when the "new kid on the block" comes along.
But some of the "new kids" only last 5 minutes whereas Vali has had a long chequered career.

[Dani Filth]

i was hoping to see them succeed with the Duke ... but i guess he's not 20 and can't wait for long .. 2 years have been rather wasted..

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by chunder

GOAT no more I am afraid he has looked at sea for the past two years and running back to Yamaha to get beat every week by Lorenzo is rather sad!!

I've been following motorsport since the late 80s and I'm not sure how long you have. However, even during Rossi's years of domination, I've always found it hard to think that there was a better rider than Rainey, including Lorenzo and Stoner. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by chunder

And do you seriously think Jorge would agree to this if he didn't think he would batter him anyway? Would you as a likely double world champion allow Rossi in your team if you didn't think you could beat him?

He isn't worried at all believe me!

I've always respected the fact that, as a new guy, Lorenzo wasn't intimidated by the Rossi juggernaut and had the confidence to be his team mate in 08.

Originally Posted by chunder

then on to the RCV, utter domination, rivalled only by a man who had previously shown nothing in any class and found inner strength from his team mate dying, Sete.

Sometimes, you have to be reminded of how ordinary Gibernau was for most of his career til that point. Do you know what stopped Biaggi from being successful, in the factory Honda's, in 04? For some reason, I felt he was on a hiding to nothing that year.

Originally Posted by chunder

I now rank Stoner and Lorenzo as better...I rank Stoner higher coz he won on a Duke, all he hasn't really done is dominate the smaller classes as Rossi did.


But in pure top class terms, you have to rate Stoner as the better rider, not man, not anything else,

My only query with Stoner on the Duke is this, does he know/understand why he's significantly better than everyone else on that bike? What if he was on a bike, equally as difficult, but not suited to him?

[EGG]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

I've been following motorsport since the late 80s and I'm not sure how long you have. However, even during Rossi's years of domination, I've always found it hard to think that there was a better rider than Rainey, including Lorenzo and Stoner. Thoughts?

I've been following the 500's/motogp for essentially the same time period and I think psychologically it takes a while to accept the "new normal" after a champion and a significant number of his competition (Gardner, Lawson, Schwantz, Kocinski, Chandler, Mamola) exit in a fairly short period of time. There were a few years in the 90's when I just felt that with the exception of Doohan, I was watching the also-rans left over from the Rainey period.

That said, Rainey does have the highest percentage of podiums/races of all time.

[chunder]

Ok then

In my opinion Rainey is the best there has ever been. Not just because he won the titles, but he did it against the best opposition, Schwantz, Gardner, Doohan, Lawson, Mamola, Kocinski etc.

And he was also rarely on the best bike, either that or he was a very possimistic man as when you see him being interviewed before those PR happy days he was rarely saying, this bike is awesome, its a jet, I love this bike.

Mick was a strange case, he and Jerry know what they lie and once they found it kept it that way for years, until Tady and Criville got close then Mick tried the 180 and left em again.

Schwantz, reminds me of a winger who is fast but cant cross a ball, perhaps the fastest guy out there, rarely on the best bike, staggeringly good on the brakes, able to ried with worm tyres, yes lapses in concentration meant we only saw what he might have been after he had been injured so often he was a spent force.

As for the modern guys, Stoner reminds me of Kevin, he is quick but not quite sure how! Lorenzo is like Lawson, metronomic, rarely makes mistakes, will settle for a lesser position if necessary. They are only alike in those ways, personalities with former riders are totally different.

As for Rossi he is like Ago, won loads with little competition, but those in the know will always tell you Hailwood was better

[FAS33]

Stoner = The Best of all time

[Dani Filth]

what if Rossi gonna win it again next year ??

[chunder]

No chance, unless Lorenzo is injured.

He may prove us wrong again, but while there are electronics Rossi is never going to challenge Lorenzo

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by chunder

Let's take stock

Vale won on a 125 Aprilia, learned for a year, won a race and then won the title easily.
Best bike? maybe, he poached the best engineers even back then as his talent allowed him to.

250, he did the same, learned once then dominated.

Similar in 500, but really who was he up against. While Mick was racing there was no opposition. Max now and again, Luca now and again, and Schwantz after 93 was an injured spent force.

On the NSR he had to beat Max, thats it really. Tady still won races as did Alex and Barros/Loris, Vale was not dominant in winning as Mick was. But he was playing and enjoying the game.

then on to the RCV, utter domination, rivalled only by a man who had previously shown nothing in any class and found inner strength from his team mate dying, Sete.

Went to Yamaha, but only under the proviso that the bike was capable of winning from the first race. Read the biography, that was kept very much under wraps, that Yamaha was designed to be capable of winning from the off, it was tested with 4 different engine configurations for Lords sake, who else has even done that in a first test! He would have still signed for them, but he really did put huge pressure on Yamaha to make that bike better in 04, its all in the book.

OK, no one else did anything on it, but lets face it, Abe, Checa and a very young Melandri??

He dominated from then on again, until the 800's and Stoner/Lorenzo. these guys beat him fair and square in the end, made him move on.

He got on the Duke and was, for him, hopeless, no worse than Melandri, Sete or Bayliss but his reign has been tainted.

I now rank Stoner and Lorenzo as better, they have consistently been able to beat each other on the best bikes. I rank Stoner higher coz he won on a Duke, all he hasn't really done is dominate the smaller classes as Rossi did.

But in pure top class terms, you have to rate Stoner as the better rider, not man, not anything else, but rider. Rossi is moving because he can't fix the bike and doesn't want to, he is getting older and wants to win again.

Can he? Of course, but does anyone here think he can beat Jorge?

Agree pretty much with all of that, excellent summary. Altho you didn't mention Elias beating him in Portugal ;-)

[Dani Filth]

Originally Posted by chunder

He may prove us wrong again, but while there are electronics Rossi is never going to challenge Lorenzo

so the electronics make Lorenzo .. "better" ..??
too bad we haven't had all of them .. Stoner, Lorenzo and Rossi for 10 years in the 500s .. and if we add Doohan and Schwantz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mac]

This is gold - and 100% on the money...

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/spo...-1226451090600

If Vale and Jermeny had just gone to Ducati and kept their mouths shut, I daresay people would have less of an issue with this whole scenario.

[chunder]

You cant blame them for being a little over confident, after all they managed the same thing with the Yamaha.

The whole episode says this: Vale is simply not capable of riding though an inherent bike problem, he can ride through some issues, but not ones that wholly change his ability to ride at the limit, he simply refuses now to take the risk.

I dont know if Stoner even knows why he was quick on the Duke and noone else has been, maybe he was braver, maybe he is genuinely faster. I tend to think a mix of the two, he was largely unproven on a GP bike when he got on the Ducati so maybe though this is simply what you do to win here??

Rossi knows what he likes and what works, after all he is a proven winner, he simply has been unable, either Ducati or Burgess, to make the bike work for him.

And his edge has been blunted because we all though he could make it still work, I think electronics now mean that is impossible

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by mac

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/spo...-1226451090600

I tell you something? As an Australian, it's nice to see Jeremy Burgess's reputation take a hit as well. The way the Australian commentators went on and on about him and Rossi (Even Sheene, when he was around). Made me sick!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

I tell you something? As an Australian, it's nice to see Jeremy Burgess's reputation take a hit as well. The way the Australian commentators went on and on about him and Rossi (Even Sheene, when he was around). Made me sick!

Isn't Karma wonderful?

Who was it that said Stoner wasn't trying hard enough again?

[jhansen]

Stoner said at the Indy press conference that those comments were pieced together from interviews over the past year, and were not given recently as a response to Rossi leaving Ducati. It's not hard to figure out why he holds the media in contempt.

[jhansen]

Reading some comments that during FP1 the commentators on the Dorna feed said Spies was being considered for the Gresini ride. Interesting, but I say unlikely. Surly that will have to be an Italian. I'd like to see Iannone there instead of him going to Ducati.