[Official] Pat Symonds joins Williams as CT

[Tourer]

The point I was making Paradise is that in your opinion PS committed a dangerous act of corruption.

The only people who really know what happened were those involved directly and as a result, your views on PS and his part in the saga, whilst no doubt based on information made public at the time, are not facts but rather suppositions or opinion.

I think I'm with JeremySmith, you clearly don't like PS. On the other hand, I'm happy to forgive and see him get on with his life - that's where I agree to disagree with you.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I never respect injustice, such is life that one has to resign oneself to injustice but respect it, nope. It's a given that I can't do anything about it and I won't belabour that point unless the matter of his integrity is directly brought up but injustice isn't anything else but injustice and with Symonds, he got off with a nominal sentence for a serious offence.

I am not suggesting you respect injustice, just the person who was the offender judged in the process.
Any wrongdoing in process (or a lack of process - not getting what you feel was a just result) should be aimed at the judges and process not the offender.

If someone has 'done his time' he has been dealt with by the process, however inadequate it may be. Yes the process is wrong but the person should be forgiven and allowed to move on if they are sincere and repentant.
If we continue to judge the offender and hold the offence against them then then we are being unforgiving and acting unjustly ourselves, and should be treated in the same way we are treating them. That is, with injustice and without forgiveness ourselves.

[chunterer]

Now how about the effect he may have on Williams?

Where do we think his slills and experience wil be most effective?

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The point I was making Paradise is that in your opinion PS committed a dangerous act of corruption.

The only people who really know what happened were those involved directly and as a result, your views on PS and his part in the saga, whilst no doubt based on information made public at the time, are not facts but rather suppositions or opinion.

I think I'm with JeremySmith, you clearly don't like PS. On the other hand, I'm happy to forgive and see him get on with his life - that's where I agree to disagree with you.

Deliberately crashing in a race track is a dangerous act of corruption and then conspiring to conceal that act. These are facts in the public domain. When you crash deliberately you put yourself, your competitors the fans in danger unnecessarily. None of this is in dispute. It's an opinion inline with reality.

I'm very partial to Pat Symonds. I very much enjoyed that podcast of his he did for Motorsport Magazine. But you have to put aside Symonds affability and weigh up the acts in of themselves. To underline my point, I can only imagine the pandemonium on this forum if Briatore was returned to a senior position in F1. Most of the posters handing out pardons over the affable PS, would be up in arms if Briatore was reappointed to a senior position in the paddock.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I am not suggesting you respect injustice, just the person who was the offender judged in the process.
Any wrongdoing in process (or a lack of process - not getting what you feel was a just result) should be aimed at the judges and process not the offender.

If someone has 'done his time' he has been dealt with by the process, however inadequate it may be. Yes the process is wrong but the person should be forgiven and allowed to move on if they are sincere and repentant.
If we continue to judge the offender and hold the offence against them then then we are being unforgiving and acting unjustly ourselves, and should be treated in the same way we are treating them. That is, with injustice and without forgiveness ourselves.

To take another example if a guy is caught dumping industrial waste in a public area but got off on a technicality we still take a critical view of the guy who dumped the waste and a critical view of the law that meant he got off.

[littleman]

I imagine he will bring to Williams some solid engineering experience, mild ridicule,hushed whispers,a little anxiety for Bottas and some sideways looks every time the pace car is deployed.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Now how about the effect he may have on Williams?

Where do we think his slills and experience wil be most effective?

He was part of a great team in 2005 and 2006. However was Bob Bell the main chap behind those winning cars?

[littleman]

You all know the tune, so altogether now;

"PaceCar Pat, PaceCar Pat
PaceCar Pat and his black and white chat
Early in the morning, just as the Son was yawning
He told poor pussy exactly what to do"

You often hear this in Renault dealerships.

[chillibowl]

been away so am late to this. to be fair i can see it from both points of view but since he is going to Williams i cant say im any more bothered about it then when he took the consulting job with Marussia...maybe thats more of a sad indictment of Williams current place on the table though.

like Coughlan, he is going to a team that is in trouble and like the team this really is a place people should be going for second chances.

if he can help rebuild a struggling team i will have to give him credit for at least showing more contrition and perseverance than any one else connected with the sad incident which was spygate. good luck to him imo.

[Adam43]

My main concern is that we have to have the injustice debate in every topic he is remotely involved in.

[Paradise City]

Symonds keeps a low-profile and is not outspoken so it's unlikely he'll be discussed much here unless he's 1. fired 2. masterminds a total Williams turnaround and odds are neither will happen.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

To take another example if a guy is caught dumping industrial waste in a public area but got off on a technicality we still take a critical view of the guy who dumped the waste and a critical view of the law that meant he got off.

Not getting off on a technicality.
However if due process sentences him and he has some form of punitive / disciplinary action taken against him then my argument is with the authority.
If there is a technicality that allows him to escape any punitive action and go completely free then the problem is again with the authority or those responsible for the prosecution.

If he has effectively never been dealt with then the case is in terms of natural justice of some sort still open.
In this particular case some due process has taken place so PS is able to move on.

So should we.

[henners88]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Senna could be a villain who got off very, very lightly.
But what Symonds was involved in was very premeditated, it was dangerous, he personally stayed safe and he stayed schtum only until Piquet let the cat out of the bag! We'd be none the wiser otherwise. That's poor form, to say the least!

Senna's accident with Prost was premeditated in the fact he said beforehand that if Prost turns in, he will not give. In reality that incident 23 years ago was far more dangerous to safety as it was the leading two drivers at the start of the race with the entire field passing through at high speed. Piquet Jr's accident was planned at a slow part of the track well into a race and he spun his car away from the racing line and away from competitors. This does not make any of these cheats right, but you can't judge pat on his participation and not condemn any other cheat the sport has seen. I personally think we have seen much worse and I don't feel the safety angle was as valid as many make out. I think people jumped on the bandwagon a bit there and used it because it carried the most sensation.

Pat served his ban for 5 years and that was the punishment that was handed out. Everybody deserves a second chance and an engineer of Pat's calibre is just what many teams need. Time to move on.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by henners88

Senna's accident with Prost was premeditated in the fact he said beforehand that if Prost turns in, he will not give. In reality that incident 23 years ago was far more dangerous to safety as it was the leading two drivers at the start of the race with the entire field passing through at high speed. Piquet Jr's accident was planned at a slow part of the track well into a race and he spun his car away from the racing line and away from competitors. This does not make any of these cheats right, but you can't judge pat on his participation and not condemn any other cheat the sport has seen. I personally think we have seen much worse and I don't feel the safety angle was as valid as many make out. I think people jumped on the bandwagon a bit there and used it because it carried the most sensation.

Pat served his ban for 5 years and that was the punishment that was handed out. Everybody deserves a second chance and an engineer of Pat's calibre is just what many teams need. Time to move on.

Extremely well put and I totally agree.
It's time to draw a line under this, give the guy a break, and to stop the witch hunt.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by henners88

Senna's accident with Prost was premeditated in the fact he said beforehand that if Prost turns in, he will not give. In reality that incident 23 years ago was far more dangerous to safety as it was the leading two drivers at the start of the race with the entire field passing through at high speed. Piquet Jr's accident was planned at a slow part of the track well into a race and he spun his car away from the racing line and away from competitors. This does not make any of these cheats right, but you can't judge pat on his participation and not condemn any other cheat the sport has seen. I personally think we have seen much worse and I don't feel the safety angle was as valid as many make out. I think people jumped on the bandwagon a bit there and used it because it carried the most sensation.

Pat served his ban for 5 years and that was the punishment that was handed out. Everybody deserves a second chance and an engineer of Pat's calibre is just what many teams need. Time to move on.

It's speculation as to exactly how they planned it. I'm sure Piquet would've done his best to keep things safe as possible for his own hide anyway. F1 is a dangerous sport, yes, but you don't deliberately and unnecessarily add to that danger for corrupt ends. If a guy is bungie jumping you don't secretly fix it so that is feat is more dangerous. That would be a serious offense. You seem to want think that I think Senna was rightly punished. I don't think that. Senna got off too. He got off because of what I would call the 'Alex Higgins' effect. He was too big a star and made too much money for the sport so the authorities lost the bottle. He should've been punished too. Senna pretty much laid it on the line about what he was going to do. If PS hadn't have been grassed up he would've continued on with his affable manner and noone else would've been any the wiser. He put his hands up only when he got caught.

Posters here are getting alot of mileage of the tough soundin' 'five year ban' but a tough sounding nominal sentence is still a nominal sentence. He still got a gig overhauling the systems at Maurissa which basically means he was their technical boss in every way but name. He secured a top F1 job whilst still being able to boast about 'serving his sentence'. A pretty tasty deal if you ask me.

Symonds got off basically because his services where in demand and FIA governance in full of holes and these things have nothing to do with the gravity of the act. My point about Briatore still stands. If he was the guy getting the big appointment there would be absolute UPROAR on here and don't tell me there wouldn't be because there would. But because it's the affable and familiar 'Pat' rather than the oily Italian we have some posters here chirping 'good, luck pat'. All I'm doing is just pointing that out to you guys.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

It's speculation as to exactly how they planned it. I'm sure Piquet would've done his best to keep things safe as possible for his own hide anyway. F1 is a dangerous sport, yes, but you don't deliberately and unnecessarily add to that danger for corrupt ends. If a guy is bungie jumping you don't secretly fix it so that is feat is more dangerous. That would be a serious offense. You seem to want think that I think Senna was rightly punished. I don't think that. Senna got off too. He got off because of what I would call the 'Alex Higgins' effect. He was too big a star and made too much money for the sport so the authorities lost the bottle. He should've been punished too. Senna pretty much laid it on the line about what he was going to do. If PS hadn't have been grassed up he would've continued on with his affable manner and noone else would've been any the wiser. He put his hands up only when he got caught.

Posters here are getting alot of mileage of the tough soundin' 'five year ban' but a tough sounding nominal sentence is still a nominal sentence. He still got a gig overhauling the systems at Maurissa which basically means he was their technical boss in every way but name. He secured a top F1 job whilst still being able to boast about 'serving his sentence'. A pretty tasty deal if you ask me.

Symonds got off basically because his services where in demand and FIA governance in full of holes and these things have nothing to do with the gravity of the act. My point about Briatore still stands. If he was the guy getting the big appointment there would be absolute UPROAR on here and don't tell me there wouldn't be because there would. But because it's the affable and familiar 'Pat' rather than the oily Italian we have some posters here chirping 'good, luck pat'. All I'm doing is just pointing that out to you guys.

Not really a fair comparison (and you're adding to the insults by calling hin an Oily Italian), it's more like comparing Jack the Ripper (or, insert your most well-known & most disliked felon here) with a sweet old lady who forgot to take her library books back on time!
As far as I'm aware, the only time that Pat Symonds has been involved with anything slightly shady has been the 'Crashgate affair' which he put his hands up to (albeit, eventually). Whereas your 'Oily Italian' has upset so many apple-carts he could start a cider farm!

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Not really a fair comparison (and you're adding to the insults by calling hin an Oily Italian), it's more like comparing Jack the Ripper (or, insert your most well-known & most disliked felon here) with a sweet old lady who forgot to take her library books back on time!
As far as I'm aware, the only time that Pat Symonds has been involved with anything slightly shady has been the 'Crashgate affair' which he put his hands up to (albeit, eventually). Whereas your 'Oily Italian' has upset so many apple-carts he could start a cider farm!

It's a perfect comparison and Flavio 'rubbing people' the wrong way is no crime, lol!

They threw the race using corrupt and dangerous practices and only when Piquet let the cat out of the bag did PS own up to it. (True) That is an extremely serious offence (True). He got off on a nominal sentence because of a string of technicalities (True). and he was with Flavio was around at Benetton during that dark year in 1994 (True).

I'm not "adding" to anything. You're missing my point and attacking me on trivial grounds because you don't like my point about the double standards. Before he got busted FB upset people because he was flamboyant, arrogant and was a rude and an outspoken guy (The oily Italian stereotype, no?) whereas Symonds is quiet and affable. But I'm calling on you guys to put aside their styles and weigh up the weight of their offenses. If you guys don't want to do that that's up to you.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

But I'm calling on you guys to put aside their styles and weigh up the weight of their offenses. If you guys don't want to do that that's up to you.

all the things you say are true but i still believe in second chances. maybe thats hypocritical (others can judge that) and while sports certainly should not be about cheating its also about redemption.

personally i dont think his return will be a fair one anyways. if he does poorly they will drop him about as fast as they dropped Coughlan and if he does well a lot of people will suspect he is back to his cheating ways. he could just as easily have disappeared and taken a job designing buses or something but he is taking the hard road here and i do think that should be respected.

im not trying to minimize what he did im just willing to allow him the opportunity to move on from it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm not "adding" to anything. You're missing my point and attacking me on trivial grounds because you don't like my point about the double standards. Before he got busted FB upset people because he was flamboyant, arrogant and was a rude and an outspoken guy (The oily Italian stereotype, no?) whereas Symonds is quiet and affable. But I'm calling on you guys to put aside their styles and weigh up the weight of their offenses. If you guys don't want to do that that's up to you.

And you could equally be accused of missing other people's points. I don't see people missing your point, I see people with a different opinion. People make a point about one guy and your counter point involves someone else with a situation that hasn't happened. Not the strongest of arguments, which probably why it is dismissed or ignored. Still, while we're at it, I'm fine with Flav. coming back if he could.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Adam43

And you could equally be accused of missing other people's points. I don't see people missing your point, I see people with a different opinion. People make a point about one guy and your counter point involves someone else with a situation that hasn't happened. Not the strongest of arguments, which probably why it is dismissed or ignored. Still, while we're at it, I'm fine with Flav. coming back if he could.

I'm not missing other people's opinions. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but opinions must be consistent though not contradictory if they are to be taken seriously. If people have something to add to the table then why not add it? At this point I'm only responding to people who quote me. I sincerely doubt people would be fine with Flavio coming back if it were him rather than Symonds that was making a comeback here. That is a supposition but a supposition that I make based an historical attitudes to Flavio that I have observed so I make it with some confidence.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm not missing other people's opinions.

and neither were others missing yours. Annoying when someone says you are isn't it? Although I didn't say you were.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Adam43

and neither were others missing yours. Annoying when someone says you are isn't it? Although I didn't say you were.

Not really. It's grim humour the lengths people are going to elude the points I'm making.

[Adam43]

Not really. Yours and others posting is coming across the same to me in terms of eluding or missing points. Which was my point.

Time to get back to the topic. Listen to my point, or ignore it, I'm easy after all it isn't that important.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I sincerely doubt people would be fine with Flavio coming back if it were him rather than Symonds that was making a comeback here. That is a supposition but a supposition that I make based an historical attitudes to Flavio that I have observed so I make it with some confidence.

surely as team principle of Renault F1 and manager of Piquet, Flavio's culpability is far greater than that of Symonds hence i would be more outraged if Flav came back or rather in this case why i find myself more sympathetic to Symonds coming back.

but perhaps you can make the case that Flav and Symonds were both high enough up in the pecking order that there is no distinction between them but are you telling me (to flip things around a bit) you would be equally as upset if someone gave Piquet (a what 22 year old kid who made a horrible decision to save his job) a second chance in F1?

[henners88]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

It's speculation as to exactly how they planned it. I'm sure Piquet would've done his best to keep things safe as possible for his own hide anyway. F1 is a dangerous sport, yes, but you don't deliberately and unnecessarily add to that danger for corrupt ends. If a guy is bungie jumping you don't secretly fix it so that is feat is more dangerous. That would be a serious offense. You seem to want think that I think Senna was rightly punished. I don't think that. Senna got off too. He got off because of what I would call the 'Alex Higgins' effect. He was too big a star and made too much money for the sport so the authorities lost the bottle. He should've been punished too. Senna pretty much laid it on the line about what he was going to do. If PS hadn't have been grassed up he would've continued on with his affable manner and noone else would've been any the wiser. He put his hands up only when he got caught.

Posters here are getting alot of mileage of the tough soundin' 'five year ban' but a tough sounding nominal sentence is still a nominal sentence. He still got a gig overhauling the systems at Maurissa which basically means he was their technical boss in every way but name. He secured a top F1 job whilst still being able to boast about 'serving his sentence'. A pretty tasty deal if you ask me.

Symonds got off basically because his services where in demand and FIA governance in full of holes and these things have nothing to do with the gravity of the act. My point about Briatore still stands. If he was the guy getting the big appointment there would be absolute UPROAR on here and don't tell me there wouldn't be because there would. But because it's the affable and familiar 'Pat' rather than the oily Italian we have some posters here chirping 'good, luck pat'. All I'm doing is just pointing that out to you guys.

Formula One has always had its inconsistencies with governance over the years and I think its very difficult to single out the cheats for stiff sentences as there has been so many of them over the years. When teams or individuals set off to cheat, they have only one agenda in mind and that is to get the best possible result. Senna's first corner crash wasn't dealt with as harshly as it deserved because the governing body FISA were under immense pressure since the previous year. The media were all over them and the public backlash concerning Senna's disqualification in '89 had dented the reputation. I think they let Senna off as a form of PR exercise because they knew they manipulated the result the previous year. That's my opinion of that, but enough of the distant history from me.

Nobody really knows who plotted the Singapore scandal, with some suggesting Piquet came up with it to save his drive, or Flav doing it to satisfy a frustrated Alonso and sponsors by giving them a win. I doubt we will ever know. Piquet Jr was not banned from racing and was free to do so in other countries in a variety of series. He committed the actual act of crashing yet was let off because he turned whistle-blower. His ex TP and chief engineer both got handed life time bans that were overturned to 5 years and now both have served them. I don't see a problem with letting either back. As I said in the opening paragraph, how do you judge the severity of the cheat? Tyrell, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Benetton, etc and countless drivers have all been found guilty of cheating and have all gone on to race in further years. The '08 scandal was extreme in the fact it hadn't happened before, or at least we think it hasn't I know. It was dealt with and Pat is coming back refreshed and hoping to gain back some face. I have no problem with that.

Mike Coughlan was allowed to come back in 2011 after the sports biggest scandal to date so I think we need to evaluate the outcomes as a whole. Its a mucky sport behind the scenes and with such pressure to succeed, I don't believe you will ever eradicate cheating. This doesn't make it right, but if you ousted every person who was caught stretching or breaking the rules you'd dilute the technical talent throughout the pitlane. I think a 5 year ban is enough of a deterrent and thankfully we haven't seen anything like this for the last 5 years or many years before.