Michelin in trouble at Indy/Michelin might not race at Indy (merged)

[Kicking-back]

Bernie has just said he's 100% certain the race will go ahead, with 20 cars on the grid.

[ozywoodwards]

i dont see why this rule (which btw has made this season one of the most interesting to watch in years, if you like we can go back to the borefest of last year...) has caused this. surely tyres that have to last a lot longer should be less likely to fail over short practice stints. and over a whole race the only reason we are finding problems is because the companies are pushing it too close to the line, which no-one is forcing them to do.

i think where it might be sensible to make it clearer is when teams can change tyres if they are flat spotted. maybe say that any pit stop for tyres that does nt include fuel is OK?! as the time it takes to do the pit stop is in itself punishment enough?

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Menelaos

Podium? the minardis would probably retire anyway

Why do you think that?


So far, there have been only 2 races in which both Minardis retired.
IIRC, that was when they introduced the new car without decent testing.

[ralf fan]

In commentary Martin said that the Renaults are worried saying that they would last only 40 laps on the current tyres.... while Mac are not at all worried...

[Don K]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

i dont think they will have a grid penalty because i think they are running the same compounds for qually.......
But the actual penalty for changing tyres between qually and race is adding a minute to the overall race time...so if this is true it will be interesting what the FIA does...

According to Article 118:
"If one or more tyres are damaged, and are deemed unusable by the FIA technical delegate,
they may be replaced by other tyres which have been used for a greater number of laps than the damaged ones"

So I think FIA could declare the current Michelin tyres unusable, which would allow all 7 teams to replace the current tyres with replacement tyres that have done the same number of laps.

---------------

Another possible approach:

Article 75 b) allows the stewards of the meeting to get the new tyres through scrutineering (force majeure).
Subsequently, article 76 c) allows the FIA technical delegate to "select
alternative dry-weather tyres to be used by any team or driver from among the relevant stock of tyres which such team's designated supplier has present at the Event." -- Which means that FIA is allowed to decide that all Michelin teams can change their tyres without a penalty.

--------------

Yet another possible approach:

FIA might use article 70 b (see above) to allow the new tyres to be added to the stock, and may inform the teams that they think the current Michelin tyres are dangerous and that black flags will be used if teams do not do something about those tyres.
This will lead to the Michelin teams to start from the pit lane, and to use a tyre-change pitstop (which means no fueling) at the start of the race.
The stewards may or may not decide that this brings about a dangerous situation which asks for a safety car --- which would eventually come down to a safety-car start with the 6 Bridgestone cars at the front.

---

I'm sure there must be more ways the FIA can handle this without breaking the rules.

[M Coupe]

Originally Posted by Don K

According to Article 118:
"If one or more tyres are damaged, and are deemed unusable by the FIA technical delegate,
they may be replaced by other tyres which have been used for a greater number of laps than the damaged ones"

So I think FIA could declare the current Michelin tyres unusable, which would allow all 7 teams to replace the current tyres with replacement tyres that have done the same number of laps.

Only problem with this scenario is the tyres being flown in are brand new and the cars are in park ferme.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

In commentary Martin said that the Renaults are worried saying that they would last only 40 laps on the current tyres.... while Mac are not at all worried...

Fisi didn't seem too worried when interviewed during quali.

[pirenzo]

Originally Posted by ozywoodwards

i dont see why this rule (which btw has made this season one of the most interesting to watch in years, if you like we can go back to the borefest of last year...) has caused this. surely tyres that have to last a lot longer should be less likely to fail over short practice stints. and over a whole race the only reason we are finding problems is because the companies are pushing it too close to the line, which no-one is forcing them to do.

i think where it might be sensible to make it clearer is when teams can change tyres if they are flat spotted. maybe say that any pit stop for tyres that does nt include fuel is OK?! as the time it takes to do the pit stop is in itself punishment enough?

Agree totally
Toyota surely are just running their pressures too low, or with too much camber or something like that which is putting unnecessary stress on the tyres.

The race will go ahead.

[Sodemo]

This is precisely the scenario I have been predicting, tyres being prepped and designed with a track in mind weeks before the race, once arriving there, the tyres don't behave well at all.

[Knowlesy]

What a farcical situation.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by The Monster

What happens if Michelin decide to pull their cars, can they run a GP with 6 cars?

no they are not allowed to run a GP with less than 12 cars taking part.
anyway that don't matter now because all cars are taking part as far as i know.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by M Coupe

Only problem with this scenario is the tyres being flown in are brand new and the cars are in park ferme.

They could use a spare car to scrub the tyres. As the organisers are allowed to have additional tyres scrutineered at any time in case of emergency (and dangerous tyres certainly are a case of emergency), they must have a way to include some short extra session long enough to allow each team to run a couple of laps (3?), change tyres, and run another 3 laps. In fact this could be done just before the race.

Or they could choose to give some penalty for all Michelin teams, thereby allowing them to use the new tyres.

Or they could use one of the other rules I quoted, thereby allowing the Michelin teams to change their tyres without getting a penalty.

Or they could allow *everybody* to change their tyres without penalty (after using rule 70b to allow the newly flown-in tyres to be added to the stock).

[Don K]

Originally Posted by beau1

no they are not allowed to run a GP with less than 12 cars taking part.

Are you really sure?

Rule 12 says: "An Event may be cancelled if fewer than 12 cars are available for it."

It does *not* say that the event *will* be cancelled.
It only says that it cannot be cancelled as long as 12 or more cars are "available".

Note that rule 12 does not state what "available" means exactly.
As far as I know, 24 cars have already participated in this event.


In fact rule 14 dictates that one of the 18 events has to be canceled. But I guess they already found away around that.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Don K

Are you really sure?

Rule 12 says: "An Event may be cancelled if fewer than 12 cars are available for it."

It does *not* say that the event *will* be cancelled.
It only says that it cannot be cancelled as long as 12 or more cars are "available".

Note that rule 12 does not state what "available" means exactly.
As far as I know, 24 cars have already participated in this event.


In fact rule 14 dictates that one of the 18 events has to be canceled. But I guess they already found away around that.

does the event mean the whole weekend or the Grand Prix itself?

[Don K]

Originally Posted by beau1

does the event mean the whole weekend or the Grand Prix itself?

I'm not exactly sure when the event starts.

But according to the rules, the initial scrutineering (which takes place on the day before first practice) is part of the event.
So I assume the event starts on thursday and ends on sunday.

[Menelaos]

Originally Posted by Don K

Why do you think that?

So far, there have been only 2 races in which both Minardis retired.
IIRC, that was when they introduced the new car without decent testing.

Yep. That was a joke. Anyway.

[JeremySmith]

This whole tyre issue is becoming a pain in the neck. The 2005 tyre rules I know have nothing to do with the problem at the USGP, so is it due to the tyre war? I am asking, and am interested in your thoughts please.

[Kirk]

Always a mystery with F1. I suppose it will be the 11th hour before we know the real goings-on and even that will be subject to some sort of appeal, both before and after the race.

[Louis B.]

So, are we or aren't we going to have a normal race with 20 cars tomorrow? I can't believe they will wait until tomorrow before making their mind. Please let me know if anyone has an update on the situation.

[alfasud]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

This whole tyre issue is becoming a pain in the neck. The 2005 tyre rules I know have nothing to do with the problem at the USGP, so is it due to the tyre war? I am asking, and am interested in your thoughts please.

I'm sure it is related to the tyre war and there would appear to be only two sure fire solutions:

1. Complete freedom in tyres (with the exception of physical dimensions)... none of this pre approved homologated rubber for a given race nonsense... bring as many compounds and tyre construction types as you like and change them whenever you like and as often as you like. So tyre construction A is a problem... no problem, use type B, or C, or D....

2. Control tyre... then there is no longer any benefit in taking a more 'aggressive' approach in tyre design... the control tyre supplier would bring a more conservative design to a fast track like Indianapolis.

Unless you go to one of these two extremes then this sort of situation is always possible.

[mattmarvell]

I think it's a real shame as what we are about to watch could end up being quite ridiculous and with this being a prime time slot in the uk / Europe - you would think F1 might be able to convert viewers but instead it's may just leave people scratching there heads thinking ‘what was that all about’…..of course on the other hand might be so bizarre as to entertain..

[mabs_nsx]

This is going to be the most boring race ever!

[mabs_nsx]

I feel sorry for all the people who wasted their money going to the race thinking they where going to see a good race. What a boring race it is going to be!

[Kicking-back]

Don't speak so soon, mabs.