[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Snetterton - Rounds 16, 17, 18 + testing

[auroan]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

The purpose of this test for Laser Tools was to get some running out of the car, realistically for them this was a shakedown to iron out any major flaws, get some feeling for the car and understand what works and what doesnt, (they were never coming in to top the timesheets with a high boost low weight lap at the end like some ), however for a car effectively running with a turbo problem all day, they were not far off where I would expect them to be for a first timed run in the car.

This is a long project and the Infiniti will see them improve over the next 2-3 seasons by developing a car rather than running the mercedes which has reached the end of its cycle, and a learning curve switching to RWD for Aiden. I would imagine that creating a duct to the turbo would be a reasonably simple task for an experienced race engineer to sort out anyway.

I dont disagree. But that wasnt the point of my comment. It was purely focused at the autosport article.

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by auroan

Shame they write utter rubbish on Autosport. I've never read such a bad summary of a problem..... "Power to the turbo" WTF. It's either ****ing exhaust gasses past the compressor/waste gate is open all the time or the pre/post intercooler ducting is crap and not providing enough air to compress.

Power to the turbo

You can't assume that readers will have a clue what the exhaust gasses have to do with compressors/waste gates or what intercoolers are. I've met racing drivers who don't know what a driveshaft is for example.

What is common knowledge to one person is voodoo to the next. Journalists have to aim for the "lowest" common denominator in the market in the main.
Of course there is always the possibility that it's a direct quote as well.

[btccbloke]

Originally Posted by auroan

I dont disagree. But that wasnt the point of my comment. It was purely focused at the autosport article.

apologies for misinterpretation

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by auroan

Shame they write utter rubbish on Autosport. I've never read such a bad summary of a problem..... "Power to the turbo" WTF. It's either ****ing exhaust gasses past the compressor/waste gate is open all the time or the pre/post intercooler ducting is crap and not providing enough air to compress.

Is it that rubbish though?

As I'm sure you are aware:
A turbocharger needs power to spin the centrifugal compressor.
This power is derived from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases.
The exhaust gases travel from the cylinder head to the compressor.

For a short statement in an article that provides a brief summary of the issue, then if their is some form of issue with getting the necessary gases to/from the compressor it makes sense.

But, if it gets you that worked up about the terms used, then I'm sure the publications would accept some freelance work submitted to give greater depth and clarity.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by auroan

You lost credibility with that statement when you said sap power to the turbo. This is my whole point. Intake air does not "power" a turbo. The only thing that "powers" a turbo is the exhaust gases that spin up the turbine and therefore the compressor on the same spindle.

Yes heat management is very much a thing for the air being compressed, but that air does not "power" the turbo. My focual point of the autosport comment was the overly simple terminology being used which is basically wrong.

Wrong, too hot and poor airflow into the compressor causes a pressure drop. The turbo doesn't just rely on the exhaust gas pressure but also the air inlet pressure and temperature for the turbo to spin up properly.

[btccbloke]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Is it that rubbish though?

As I'm sure you are aware:
A turbocharger needs power to spin the centrifugal compressor.
This power is derived from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases.
The exhaust gases travel from the cylinder head to the compressor.

For a short statement in an article that provides a brief summary of the issue, then if their is some form of issue with getting the necessary gases to/from the compressor it makes sense.

But, if it gets you that worked up about the terms used, then I'm sure the publications would accept some freelance work submitted to give greater depth and clarity.

This is a very good explanation, before criticising the way something is written, remember that the publication be it the site or in paper is read by everyone from the casual person who just occasionally watches but has no interest in mechanical information to people within the teams who were probably involved with preparing the car on the day. Often a very generic statement is understood by all without needing to be pedantic about the real nuts and bolts of a problem.

This is no different to a report saying a driver "retired with engine problems", the reader probably doesnt care that it was lets say a head gasket leak causing compression issues in the 3rd cylinder and lead to overheating and power issues, they just know that the driver is out because of an engine issue.
Autosport is not a low level technical information manual and shouldnt be read as such

[S griffin]

Motorbase must be encourage by their times, certainly they seem to be getting better each meeting. Certainly was good to see the Alfa putting in good times, even if it was a glory run

[porsche962fan]

if you look the indy standings Motorbase have been rather left behind after Donington by BTC and AMD so they really need to bounce back to have a chance

while on the overall title it's hopeless for them due to WSR steamroller

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by dwh43scale

My gallery from yesterday can be found here -

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmFdsBeN

Awesome, thanks for sharing! 👍🏼👍🏼

[auroan]

Originally Posted by RS67

Wrong, too hot and poor airflow into the compressor causes a pressure drop. The turbo doesn't just rely on the exhaust gas pressure but also the air inlet pressure and temperature for the turbo to spin up properly.

You have all the components. But described it wrong. Air into the compressor is at atmospheric pressure or may be a little higher if you take into account the ram air effect when the vehicle is travelling forward. It may be heated a little by that but not significantly.

You are thinking of the compressed (boosted air) which is "after" the compressor. This is why we have intercoolers. To cool the compressed air before it enters the inlet manifold.

You are also thinking of compressor stall. Either way only exhaust gases "power" a turbo. If you disagree do some more reading.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

This is a very good explanation, before criticising the way something is written, remember that the publication be it the site or in paper is read by everyone from the casual person who just occasionally watches but has no interest in mechanical information to people within the teams who were probably involved with preparing the car on the day. Often a very generic statement is understood by all without needing to be pedantic about the real nuts and bolts of a problem.

This is no different to a report saying a driver "retired with engine problems", the reader probably doesnt care that it was lets say a head gasket leak causing compression issues in the 3rd cylinder and lead to overheating and power issues, they just know that the driver is out because of an engine issue.
Autosport is not a low level technical information manual and shouldnt be read as such

There is a difference between dumming down but keeping it factually correct.... and dumming down to point it's wrong.

Your example is perfectly fine.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Is it that rubbish though?

As I'm sure you are aware:
A turbocharger needs power to spin the centrifugal compressor.
This power is derived from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases.
The exhaust gases travel from the cylinder head to the compressor.

For a short statement in an article that provides a brief summary of the issue, then if their is some form of issue with getting the necessary gases to/from the compressor it makes sense.

But, if it gets you that worked up about the terms used, then I'm sure the publications would accept some freelance work submitted to give greater depth and clarity.

It would if they used a different word than ducting. Hay.... standards at the moment across a number of things appear to dropping. If people are happy to read incorrect information then fine.

Just a shame that one little comment that a few posters have read far to much into or has sporned such responses.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by auroan

It would if they used a different word than ducting. Hay.... standards at the moment across a number of things appear to dropping. If people are happy to read incorrect information then fine.

What is wrong with the word ducting?

The exhaust gases that power a turbo are ducted from the cylinder to the compressor. Therefore, those components through which the turbo's power is ducted could correctly be referred to as ducting.

It may not be your choice of terminology, but it's not wrong.

Such a shame people have to incorrectly criticise an article, then get upset when they are corrected.

[btccbloke]

Originally Posted by auroan

It would if they used a different word than ducting. Hay.... standards at the moment across a number of things appear to dropping. If people are happy to read incorrect information then fine.

Just a shame that one little comment that a few posters have read far to much into or has sporned such responses.

So for full context: (from AUtosport)
Aiden Moffat made his debut in the revamped Infiniti, which the Laser Tools Racing squad will run for the remainder of the year.
The car currently lacks a proper ducting system to deliver power to the turbo, but the outfit says this will be corrected for the next race meeting at Snetterton on August 4-5.


I am pretty sure anyone, no matter your level of interest in racing or engineering, could pick that up and understand the intent of the piece, I'm not sure how someone can read this and have more questions, be confused or need more information, its a high level article about a test session, not a strip down and rebuild technical information bulletin.

[peebee2]

Point is not to believe a word Autosport, in this case, says as the ‘journalist’ probably couldn’t tell a turbo from a gearbox.

[Sodemo]

What engine does the Infinity run?

[Johno.UK]

The article was written by Matt James the editor of Motorsport News so I don't think knowledge is an issue seeing as he has been reporting on BTCC for as long as I can remember.


As far as I know the Infiniti runs the standard TOCA engine in the inline configuration.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by auroan

You have all the components. But described it wrong. Air into the compressor is at atmospheric pressure or may be a little higher if you take into account the ram air effect when the vehicle is travelling forward. It may be heated a little by that but not significantly.

You are thinking of the compressed (boosted air) which is "after" the compressor. This is why we have intercoolers. To cool the compressed air before it enters the inlet manifold.

You are also thinking of compressor stall. Either way only exhaust gases "power" a turbo. If you disagree do some more reading.

I am not thinking of the compression air at all. At lower engine speeds the air traveling into the compressor travels at a slower rate. Depending on how that air is directed it can suffer heat soak and the air temperature rises. The turbo has to work harder to produce the same amount of boost. If the turbo is unable to work harder it will be producing less boost and the compressed air will be higher in temperature. If the intercooler is unable to get the charge air temps down. The air will be less dense and the engine will be down on power.
If the air inlet temperature to the compressor remains cold and free flowing, the air is already dense, the air can travel faster through the compressor wheel aiding the turbo to spin up easier and faster, the turbo doesn't have to work so hard, it operates at a cooler temperature, the compressed air is at a lower temperature leaving the turbo meaning the intercooler can do a better job of providing colder denser induction air.
Just because the exhaust gasses do most of the work, you would be wrong to assume they do all of it.
If you disagree try observing it on an engine dyno. Much more informative than just reading books.

[Pickles]

Sorry, I must be looking at the wrong topic... I was looking for people's thoughts on the test session.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

The article was written by Matt James the editor of Motorsport News so I don't think knowledge is an issue seeing as he has been reporting on BTCC for as long as I can remember.


As far as I know the Infiniti runs the standard TOCA engine in the inline configuration.

The previous time it ran, it had a Swindon unit.

And given that there is no 2L engine across the Infiniti family, it's a pretty safe bet that they have to use the Swindon motor. It will be the only longitudinal in-line Swindon on the grid, so there is no crossover of turbo installation from other cars.

[Sodemo]

Long range forecast for the weekend at Snetterton looks "mixed".

[porsche962fan]

and no HARD driver replaced so far ? mark this event in your calendar

[auroan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

What is wrong with the word ducting?

The exhaust gases that power a turbo are ducted from the cylinder to the compressor. Therefore, those components through which the turbo's power is ducted could correctly be referred to as ducting.

It may not be your choice of terminology, but it's not wrong.

Such a shame people have to incorrectly criticise an article, then get upset when they are corrected.

Funny.. I don't see where anything in a post denotes my emotional state. But hey ho assumptions again.

And everything is wrong with the word ducting if we're talking about exhaust gases... as the correct terminology is exhaust manifold. Also please explain what is incorrect in the criticism ?

I'm not the one taking conversations away from the fact that only the exhaust gases "power" a turbo.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by RS67

I am not thinking of the compression air at all. At lower engine speeds the air traveling into the compressor travels at a slower rate. Depending on how that air is directed it can suffer heat soak and the air temperature rises. The turbo has to work harder to produce the same amount of boost. If the turbo is unable to work harder it will be producing less boost and the compressed air will be higher in temperature. If the intercooler is unable to get the charge air temps down. The air will be less dense and the engine will be down on power.
If the air inlet temperature to the compressor remains cold and free flowing, the air is already dense, the air can travel faster through the compressor wheel aiding the turbo to spin up easier and faster, the turbo doesn't have to work so hard, it operates at a cooler temperature, the compressed air is at a lower temperature leaving the turbo meaning the intercooler can do a better job of providing colder denser induction air.
Just because the exhaust gasses do most of the work, you would be wrong to assume they do all of it.
If you disagree try observing it on an engine dyno. Much more informative than just reading books.

Thanks for the explanation of a variable that affects the ability to generate a certain level of boost. However as you say it's just a variable. The "power" to the compressor still comes from the exhaust gas.

Anyway we're going to go round in circles with a number of people trying to steer the core discussion point away from the SINGLE issue I had with the detail in the article.

Off back to working on my race engine on the dyno and building the rest of my shell. We had a good giggle about this thread in the workshop anyway.

I'll keep quiet from now on as I obviously know nothing about what I'm talking about.

Maybe come to a race meeting and have a chat with me. Happy to discuss it after I've finished racing ;-)

Next meeting is Silverstone National on the 15th Nov

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by auroan

Thanks for the explanation of a variable that affects the ability to generate a certain level of boost. However as you say it's just a variable. The "power" to the compressor still comes from the exhaust gas.

Anyway we're going to go round in circles with a number of people trying to steer the core discussion point away from the SINGLE issue I had with the detail in the article.

Off back to working on my race engine on the dyno and building the rest of my shell. We had a good giggle about this thread in the workshop anyway.

I'll keep quiet from now on as I obviously know nothing about what I'm talking about.

Maybe come to a race meeting and have a chat with me. Happy to discuss it after I've finished racing ;-)

Next meeting is Silverstone National on the 15th Nov