Hopes, expectations and excitement for 2024

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

tell me a couple of things, for how long?

I think I started watching around 1988 and pretty consistently a few years after that.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

And mainly what is it that makes you watch it, what do you get out of it, and do you watch much else?

I find it interesting that you use the very narrow "watch" vs. something broader that covers more of the overall experience.

I "follow" F1 (including watching races and qualifying, keeping up on news, participating in social media such as this site) as I enjoy the technical competition of the power unit and manufactures and the on track battles between the teams (drivers, strategists, pit crew, etc.). As to what I get out of it... it is a competition. There is always something of interest happening. I would love to see more F1 races in which there is tighter competition and more lap by lap action (such as driver battles). But... not at the expense of "helping hand" rules (see my comments about BoP below). Because to me those series are fiction. I am not here to watch fiction.

As to "watching". While I may occasionally watch something like a race or qualifying "live", I generally am watching it delayed and have no issues with fast forwarding through and skipping as needed.

What else am I watching/following? I used to follow WRC many years ago when it was much easier to watch in the US. I pretty much almost love endurance and GT racing as much as F1, but give the predominate series stopped having any real technological competition and are ruled by BoP strategy I pretty much lost nearly all interest (at the end of the semi-recent Porsche/Audi era). This may be fighting words for some people here, but for me, WEC, etc. is just one step away from theatrical wrestling.

Maybe that is a bit of a strong statement, but it illustrates how much of a priority I put upon competition that does not include "helping hands" for the purposes of entertainment. I think the fiction element of something like WEC is too much for me. If something like WEC moved back toward something that was focused on working to technical specifications and let the best team win, I would be instantly back to following it.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I find truly interesting development interesting but a few million spent on a barge board interests me about as much as watching grass grow, I was lucky to be around when true innovation was there, now the cars look very similar, they are all pushing around the same areas and largely development is seemingly limited.

I get your point to a degree. F1 is a business. And the sandbox in which development is open is pretty small. But also larger than people think. As to "true innovation" what racing series today is doing that? None of the top ones for sure!

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I think I feel it has grown out of itself in a way, lots of very clever people gainfully employed

I didn't quote this entire thing, but I just don't really get what you are saying here. People are over paid or something. I don't quite understand.

Question back at you flatlandsman... What do you think are good motorsports series that DONT have problems that you say F1 has? I have yet to find a perfect series out there.

Richard

[Alan52]

I wish they had a like button on this forum as I definitely would click it for your post Richard.
First thing that attracts me to F1 is that the drivers,designers and most of the teams are absolutely the best in the sport.
I also follow and watch other series but don’t enjoy anything as much as F1.
As for the parity adjustment in WEC I accepted it up to the point they started playing with it during Le Mans race week in GT Pro.Last years late adjustment to do everything they could do to try and stop Toyota winning Le Mans was a step too far for me.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I find truly interesting development interesting but a few million spent on a barge board interests me about as much as watching grass grow,

I think I feel it has grown out of itself in a way, lots of very clever people gainfully employed (I live near Brackley that has been taken over by Mercedes, now ruining local business by opening new roads and trampling all over local businesses simply to employ another 600 people at tens of millions a year) All to get two overpaid petulant little men to go quicker in cars that bear zero relevance to anything anyone can ever drive.

I find this a little how can I put it, silly!

Firstly, I like aerodynamics, I think it is very interesting. Even if you don't like aerodynamics, surely the combustion and electrical side of things might interest you? Even though it is homologated until 2025, these units are very advanced and have lots of trick stuff (they have to be to cope with 17:1 static compression, 19:1 air fuel ratio & 70psi boost pressure without exploding instantly! ).

Secondly, yes it is still silly, but it's the natural progression ever since Frank Dernie decided that Williams should get their own wind tunnel having figured out that aero development was worth far more laptime than developing anything else. It seems like you don't like anything about Formula One, be it the drivers or the engineers, lol.

As for the tyre warmers? Blame Gordon Murray for bringing those to F1 and I agree that they are silly and are a ridiculous look, and I support the tyre blanket ban.

Of course it would be great if there were more "general" engineers and less hyper-specialists working on tweaking a front wing flap by a couple of mm (Newey is supposedly the last of those who from the more holistic era of designing the whole car from nose to tail and being the race engineer setting it up for the likes of Bobby Rahal), but with the resources involved, it's the natural progression.

Inevitably, any lower classes are FULL of spec parts now (which is a huge shame IMO). So while the BTCC is at that more modest level of a team of 15 instead of 1500, and Indycar could potentially be that yet is also spec, an engineer there isn't allowed to design a suspension or a brake system or much of anything.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I dont live in Brackley, I live near there, and I simply find it fascinating that so many people, so much space is taken up to get two little men around a race track to sell cars.

Does anyone else not think it's a bit crass, a bit silly, a bit emperors new clothes at time?

Of course it is crass and absurd, there are countries with famine, but the budget cap has helped to reign it in a bit. From $600m USD p/a budgets to $125m USD p/a budgets IIRC. If you think F1 budgets are bad, how about the cost to run a professional Association Football or Bundesliga team (it ain't any better!)?

Of course this opened accounting and the way to count hours spent on F1 v other projects as a new competitive battlefield, as you would expect.

Also I think you are distorting the direct relationship to selling cars, which probably does not exist apart from with Ferrari and McLaren (and Team Lotus in the past, but they still manage to sell cars now, despite their F1 team going bankrupt 30 years ago).

[MaxLL]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Of course it is crass and absurd, there are countries with famine, but the budget cap has helped to reign it in a bit. From $600m USD p/a budgets to $125m USD p/a budgets IIRC. If you think F1 budgets are bad, how about the cost to run a professional Association Football or Bundesliga team (it ain't any better!)?

Professional football clubs make their own money. And football is a more popular sport than F1. I think the management association is still funded by the state, but the clubs pay their dues as well. I can't imagine the Bundesliga ceasing to exist. Or any other top level league.

Hello, everyone! This is my first post, I'll be checking in occasionally. I hope I don't seem too boring.

[S griffin]

F1 has survived a few tough times and despite it's flaws, has continued to be popular enough to keep interest. Money has kept it going, just like any other sport. At the end of the day they all need to make a good business.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by MaxLL

Professional football clubs make their own money. And football is a more popular sport than F1. I think the management association is still funded by the state, but the clubs pay their dues as well. I can't imagine the Bundesliga ceasing to exist. Or any other top level league.

Hello, everyone! This is my first post, I'll be checking in occasionally. I hope I don't seem too boring.

Welcome, but I must admit that I cannot understand your first post.

Professional football teams rely on sponsorship to keep them afloat. And plenty of them have had to be rescued in past years, especially in the lower leagues.

What is a management association; are you referring to the Football Association? Then yes, is does receive public funding, most of which is percolated down to lower league clubs, many or most of which are amateur.

[MaxLL]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Welcome, but I must admit that I cannot understand your first post.

Professional football teams rely on sponsorship to keep them afloat. And plenty of them have had to be rescued in past years, especially in the lower leagues.

What is a management association; are you referring to the Football Association? Then yes, is does receive public funding, most of which is percolated down to lower league clubs, many or most of which are amateur.

Yeah, I mean the Football Association.
And yes, many clubs in the lower leagues often have to be rescued. I think this is part of the state strategy to develop sport in the country. It's not as bad as it sounds. It's still better that people are getting involved in sport than drinking beer.

[chillibowl]

wow interesting couple of pages! would love to add many things but really im just happy when someone's rantings offer me the opportunity to post this!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I wish they had a like button on this forum as I definitely would click it for your post Richard.

Originally Posted by MaxLL

Hello, everyone! This is my first post, I'll be checking in occasionally. I hope I don't seem too boring.

Welcome to the madhouse!

Richard

[S griffin]

Anyway Merc are already saying their car feels racey, so there's a good omen for the season ahead. Expect to see them back at the front

[flatlandsman]

I do not think there is a perfect series, I think that ship sailed a long long time ago.

Petrol vehicles are sadly on their last legs and companies will soon be very likely to not want to be involved in any kind of sport that uses fuel like this, so I can see the rapid end of ICE motorsport in my lifetime.

The days with excess were odd, but also fun in a way, I guess age has a lot to do with it

[broadrun96]

The idea petrol vehicles are on their last legs is laughable at best and delusional at worst. And in fact F1 is working DIRECTLY on things that can replace and surpass the current formulas to retain the ICE and use of petrol based fuels with vastly reduced emissions even over the emissions of battery based vehicle systems. Thinking that ONLY things you can see are huge advancements shows the lack of understanding of the how engineering works and what advancements actually are. Just because a wing is obvious doesn't mean the barge board isn't as advanced. But continue with wasting your own time to cry and mock people who can destroy each and every one of your "points" as to why x is terrible. Others just move on if they don't enjoy, or you could get your billions, buy out LM and make it in your decided image.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

hoping for a more active drivers market. while all 20 have been retained for the start of this season, apparently 13 of the drivers are coming to the end of their deals this season so looking forward to and speculating on the dynamics that brings to the table...even if nothing changes!

This is definitely an impressive fact. Of course, as a driver it's hard to break into F1 with so few teams (and I hope we have an easier route in for not just one new team, but more new teams - I don't recall if I mentioned that in my original post), and there are plenty of talented drivers not making it, but at least the field we have is of an extremely high calibre. It's good that those who are there are being given enough chance to make an impression. It's nice to not see a constant rotation. Even Logan Sargeant has got a second chance and let's hope he can get much closer to Albon, because it would be fantastic for Williams if he demonstrates that some drivers just need a bit more time and ultimately deliver on their potential.

Regarding Olivier Panis, he was my favourite driver growing up watching in my childhood era of the 90s. I don't know why I latched onto him, but I decided back in '94 or '95 that I wanted him to do well. Monaco '96 is one of my favourite F1 memories as you can imagine.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

In 2024 I hope that DRS zones can be tweaked a bit to stop TenTenthers moaning about it all the time.

Aysedasi and I will take our leave.

It's got to be better than Strictly!

That depends how many races you vote higher than a "seven".

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

The idea petrol vehicles are on their last legs is laughable at best and delusional at worst. And in fact F1 is working DIRECTLY on things that can replace and surpass the current formulas to retain the ICE and use of petrol based fuels with vastly reduced emissions even over the emissions of battery based vehicle systems. Thinking that ONLY things you can see are huge advancements shows the lack of understanding of the how engineering works and what advancements actually are. Just because a wing is obvious doesn't mean the barge board isn't as advanced. But continue with wasting your own time to cry and mock people who can destroy each and every one of your "points" as to why x is terrible. Others just move on if they don't enjoy, or you could get your billions, buy out LM and make it in your decided image.

What is on its way out is petrol with any fossil fuel component.
The future for motor racing is synthetic fuel and ICU’s.The future for road transport is electric with a yet to be decided battery type and powered from renewable energy.

[bathurst77]

Like any sport or passion its a feedback loop. The more you put into it and devote your time and attention, the more you enjoy it.

If you sit down with the attitude of "this will be boring" you will be proved correct. If you go in looking for nuances, listening to the politics theatre and back stories, you get hooked and want more, which leads to paying more attention, reading the stories, getting more nuanced, which gives you things to watch for: "did that happen because of what I read?" "does that car/drivers result mean that..." and so it goes.
You're no longer just watching a bunch of fast cars try and pass each other, you're watching "to see if..", so its interesting.

Re the tyre blankets you wonder why given they would soon lose temp. Well like all things, the teams would have tested and investigated and decided that they help, every .001 of a second counts! These are the intrigues we like.

I also enjoy cricket. Let me tell you that an afternoon on the couch with a couple of beers watching a 4 day test will definitely involve the odd snooze! But I like the long term stories, the rise and fall of various countries and players, the back stories etc.

EG: Yesterday in a cricket match between Australia (one of the best placed teams in the world) and West Indies (near the bottom of the table) a young West Indian bowler playing his very first test, got one of Australia's top star batsmen out on the very first ball he ever bowled! 1 bowl, 1 champion scalp!
If you didnt know this story, and was just watching and a bloke got another one out, yawn... but that was remarkable.

On the other hand I grew up passionate about Australian Touring Cars in the days of Moffat, Brock, Grice,Morris and Johnson.I knew all the drivers stories, got autographs and shook their hand and had a chat when i could. I had a score bookin my brain and could tell you almost every result from any race... I lived it.
But as I matured I lost interest, it morphed into supercars, I rarely watch and I dont know most of the drivers or teams anymore. But im sure if I took time to get to know them i would get into it.

And the internet is full of passionate supporters having good old barnies about the latest travails. I dont go on there telling them I dont care. They dont care that I dont care and I cant add anything to their arguments coz i dont know the ins and outs.

Its not the sport, its you, our tastes and interests change.
Find something you love and be positive. If you have nothing to add, add nothing.

[flatlandsman]

I suppose the difference is (again I need to repeat) I USED to be that guy I don't really know what changed, I say AGAIN, I used to be the guy looking forward to car reveals, the guy watching practice sessions, was only a few years ago even the last period of V8's.

I can nail down a few factors. David Croft is certainly one, the most useless overrated cretin I think who has ever been let loose behind a mic, that is a factor in my lack of interest. And linked to that the selling of the sport to pay tv etc. Even though I have free access to SKY oddly.

The hybrid cars lost me from day one, and I hoped they would eventually pull back, but they just sound miserable, I know they were probably fine live but I cannot justify spending hundreds of pounds, that is my yearly racing attendance budget.

f1 cars do not LOOK pretty anymore, they look like trucks, yes there is amazing design but it is all silly little winglets and lips and odd stuff, that is the edges, a car like a 640 or Tyrrell 019 that wowed you as it was so different, they all look very similar as do liveries and helmets etc.

The drivers are OK, I think there are interesting characters in there, but you hear them on the radio and instantly your heart sinks at times, most of it is OK, but the petulant crybaby stuff, sorry it's like footballers rolling about for me, grow a pair and be a man for goodness sake. They are almost told what to do I hate that aspect too, it has always been this way in recent years, but I do not like this, a driver should be left alone to work out HIS way of winning or getting the best result, 50 overpaid people sitting behind screens does not make it more interesting does it?

You can say that is progress, I can say that removes the ability of certain drivers to make the difference, that is why the grid is closer, because the rules are so tight every car is almost the same, the drivers are mollycoddled and simulated to within an inch of their life to be fractions apart. IS that better? I dont think so sorry. it leaves imagination, eccentricity, personality out of the loop. They are automatons at times.

Then the final aspect,m in what world should Stroll, or anyone like him be in this sport for that long, just because he is rich, yes it has always been there, but they dont usually hang around for this long!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

...Find something you love and be positive. If you have nothing to add, add nothing.

words to live by! great post!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I can nail down a few factors. David Croft is certainly one, the most useless overrated cretin I think who has ever been let loose behind a mic, that is a factor in my lack of interest. And linked to that the selling of the sport to pay tv etc. Even though I have free access to SKY oddly.

The hybrid cars lost me from day one, and I hoped they would eventually pull back, but they just sound miserable, I know they were probably fine live but I cannot justify spending hundreds of pounds, that is my yearly racing attendance budget.

Regarding complaints around things like broadcast personalities and especially the cost of viewing and/or attending races are area in which you are likely to get a good bit of agreement.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

f1 cars do not LOOK pretty anymore, they look like trucks, yes there is amazing design but it is all silly little winglets and lips and odd stuff, that is the edges, a car like a 640 or Tyrrell 019 that wowed you as it was so different, they all look very similar as do liveries and helmets etc.

I think your struggle is not unusual. My theory is that there are a handful of factors at play. First you speak to things like "sounds" and "looks". I think that for a large period of F1's history many cars were primarily the fruit of the imagination of an individual (or very small group). I tend to think that in general humans have a strong affinity toward aesthetics when creating things. F1 cars are no different. So many F1 cars from prior era have a strong subjective "beauty". Sometimes those beautiful cars are also successful. Additionally, I think fans can sometimes latch onto cars that existed in their formative fan years. For me that is the McLaren MP4/4. For me, that is my internal definition of an "F1 car", but it is also deeply rooted in the past. For others it might be something like an Eagle Mk1 or any other number of iconic cars of the past.

And while those cars may have been technical marvels of their era, time has marched on and the overall knowledge of "how to go fast on four wheels" has rocketed skyward. Old solutions have been surpassed. If you want them to look like older cars, then you have to regulate that into them and that is not easy.

So within relatively tightly controlled technical specifications, there tends to be singular solutions to problems. Teams will eventually gravitate towards solutions that are proven to work. Sometime new ideas are tried but failure can be VERY costly. A great example is Mercedes locking into their minimal sidepod aero concepts for a long time and it really hurt them. Now everyone is effectively onboard with Red Bull's winning aero solutions. Now the topic of strict vs. open rules is another can of worms that I not going to get into.

So in short, to be successful today, car design have (mostly) moved out of the head of singular geniuses and into a process that is very focused on scientific methods. And solutions that are quick may not look pretty. The end results is that aesthetics are gone or nearly so. F1 is very much "form follows function". The remaining aesthetics is in livery and even there, we are moving toward a world of saving weight by not painting all of the car. So even livery is impacted by performance realities.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

The drivers are OK, I think there are interesting characters in there, but you hear them on the radio and instantly your heart sinks at times, most of it is OK, but the petulant crybaby stuff, sorry it's like footballers rolling about for me, grow a pair and be a man for goodness sake. They are almost told what to do I hate that aspect too, it has always been this way in recent years, but I do not like this, a driver should be left alone to work out HIS way of winning or getting the best result, 50 overpaid people sitting behind screens does not make it more interesting does it?

I struggle with much of the above. If you did follow things more closely you would understand that the "crybaby" stuff is not organic. Teams ask drivers to complain on the radio so as to try to influence stewards decisions. Not to say that they are not showing their emotion. I guess we may not know exactly what drivers of old might have said if either asked to do the same or provided with more opportunities to be heard in the heat of the moment.

The "overpaid" bit still puzzles. People are paid based upon market demands. That is just how the world works.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

You can say that is progress, I can say that removes the ability of certain drivers to make the difference, that is why the grid is closer, because the rules are so tight every car is almost the same, the drivers are mollycoddled and simulated to within an inch of their life to be fractions apart. IS that better? I dont think so sorry. it leaves imagination, eccentricity, personality out of the loop. They are automatons at times.

I would say this is the clearest indication that you haven't been following F1 much at all for a long time. Comments that drivers can't make a difference is objectively incorrect. The easiest example is the situation at Red Bull and relative performance of Max vs. Checo. Something that is very obvious and hotly discussed here and elsewhere. And if you watched you would see the differences in personality and eccentricities of the drivers. They are quite diverse.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

Then the final aspect,m in what world should Stroll, or anyone like him be in this sport for that long, just because he is rich, yes it has always been there, but they dont usually hang around for this long!

Most everyone will agree with you on this. But as you say, this is nothing new. It has been going on for a long long time and unlikely to change if money drives F1.

In the end these are your opinions. So hopefully you don't feel overly browbeat by comments like mine. F1 can't be everything to all people. I think fans who are very focused on "how it used to be in my days" are going to be disappointed. Especially with respect to expectations around the aesthetic aspects. However there are good aspects of the past that remain high points of the sport/business and those running the circus should aspire to recreate.

Richard

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Like any sport or passion its a feedback loop. The more you put into it and devote your time and attention, the more you enjoy it.

If you sit down with the attitude of "this will be boring" you will be proved correct. If you go in looking for nuances, listening to the politics theatre and back stories, you get hooked and want more, which leads to paying more attention, reading the stories, getting more nuanced, which gives you things to watch for: "did that happen because of what I read?" "does that car/drivers result mean that..." and so it goes.
You're no longer just watching a bunch of fast cars try and pass each other, you're watching "to see if..", so its interesting.

Re the tyre blankets you wonder why given they would soon lose temp. Well like all things, the teams would have tested and investigated and decided that they help, every .001 of a second counts! These are the intrigues we like.

I also enjoy cricket. Let me tell you that an afternoon on the couch with a couple of beers watching a 4 day test will definitely involve the odd snooze! But I like the long term stories, the rise and fall of various countries and players, the back stories etc.

EG: Yesterday in a cricket match between Australia (one of the best placed teams in the world) and West Indies (near the bottom of the table) a young West Indian bowler playing his very first test, got one of Australia's top star batsmen out on the very first ball he ever bowled! 1 bowl, 1 champion scalp!
If you didnt know this story, and was just watching and a bloke got another one out, yawn... but that was remarkable.

On the other hand I grew up passionate about Australian Touring Cars in the days of Moffat, Brock, Grice,Morris and Johnson.I knew all the drivers stories, got autographs and shook their hand and had a chat when i could. I had a score bookin my brain and could tell you almost every result from any race... I lived it.
But as I matured I lost interest, it morphed into supercars, I rarely watch and I dont know most of the drivers or teams anymore. But im sure if I took time to get to know them i would get into it.

And the internet is full of passionate supporters having good old barnies about the latest travails. I dont go on there telling them I dont care. They dont care that I dont care and I cant add anything to their arguments coz i dont know the ins and outs.

Its not the sport, its you, our tastes and interests change.
Find something you love and be positive. If you have nothing to add, add nothing.

Great points, I enjoyed reading it!

[Rusty Nail]

I would like to see the drivers racing. I am not interested in watching most of them conserving tyres and fuel for a considerable part of the races!

My hopes would be to see free choice of tyres from the mandated pool to be used however they like. Different cars and drivers, as we see now, have different tyre consumption properties. Let them design the cars and use the tyres that suit their design the best. Get rid of tyre warmers. These are the best drivers in the world, let them show us how to manage sub optimal grip for a few laps!

I would like to see refuelling brought back. That may take some of the bulk and weight out of the cars. Safety grounds of course but Le Mans, Indycar, Supercars etc have refuelling and minimal problems.

Of course computer simulations are likely to mandate similar strategies for some teams but the vagaries of racing, as always, will mean adjusting strategy on the fly and having greater tyre and fuelling choices would add variety and interest.

Lastly, really cut back the aero and get rid of DRS. Ok the cars will be slower but the racing should be better.

My expectations are that none of this will happen of course!

Edit. Maybe this would be more appropriate on the Future Rule Changes thread. Never the less those would be my hopes etc for 2024 even though it won't happen.

Mods, feel free to move this post if you think it is more appropriate else where.

[chillibowl]

Probably fair to say that a reintroduction of refuelling would create a huge push to make the cars smaller?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I do not think there is a perfect series, I think that ship sailed a long long time ago.

Petrol vehicles are sadly on their last legs and companies will soon be very likely to not want to be involved in any kind of sport that uses fuel like this, so I can see the rapid end of ICE motorsport in my lifetime.

The days with excess were odd, but also fun in a way, I guess age has a lot to do with it

If petrol vehicles are on their last legs then you dont realise just how much of the talk is completely verbose.

For a start, fossil fuels do a lot more than power vehicles.
The notion that you can do without the offshoots of petro-chemicals is just one example.
Do completely do without items of plastic, medicines and pharmaceuticals, plus a plethora of consumer items such as clothing, carpets and othr flooring etc defies belief.

Secondly, it is a nonsense to assume that the world can sustain its enrgies needs from renewables in the environment per se.
If the reasoning to depart from oil as a major fossil fuel and turn to electricity gemerated from weather elements such as wind and solar power, and the rationale is to save the environment including potential weather and climate transformation then they are putting their hopes in the wrong basket.

In view of the predictions of catastrophic climate change, why are we spending so much on sourcing so much of our needs from electricity generated by using elements of the climate like wind and sunlight when they may not be available much longer?

The argument is not about climate change at all. It is about money.
Climate cycles do alter and the surface of the sun has an enormous effect on what happens here on earth where the oceans play and enormous part in regulating seasonal cycles and movements. Far more than pollution does.

Even the measurement of pollution is a scam.
It is usually quoted in tems of the amount of pollution per capita, which is a complete nonsense.
A small nation, sparsely populated over a relatively medium sized area is generating relatively high amounts of pollution per capita, because of the distances involved in travel and commercial distribution, but the capita amount may be relatively high. But the amount per square 100 kms is quite low.

On the other hand, industrial cities generate enormous amounts of industrial pollution with large populations, like Shenzen in China, or Los Angeles.

China produced 26 percent of global GHG emissions, nearly twice as much as the next- highest producer, the United States. New Zealand contributed 0.17 percent. The top 12 emitting countries produced nearly double the amount of GHGs produced by all other countries.

So the per capita amount is a meaningless amount.
If you believe all the rhetoric, everything you are told, and don't analyze what's really going on, you, miss a lot.

Just like when following F1....

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Probably fair to say that a reintroduction of refuelling would create a huge push to make the cars smaller?

Badly needed, somehow - F1 cars are grossly large now which is a part of the reason why they're not perceived as being 'beautiful' any more and plays no small part in all of the track limits idiocy that we see
these days.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If petrol vehicles are on their last legs then you dont realise just how much of the talk is completely verbose.

For a start, fossil fuels do a lot more than power vehicles.
The notion that you can do without the offshoots of petro-chemicals is just one example.
Do completely do without items of plastic, medicines and pharmaceuticals, plus a plethora of consumer items such as clothing, carpets and othr flooring etc defies belief.

Secondly, it is a nonsense to assume that the world can sustain its enrgies needs from renewables in the environment per se.
If the reasoning to depart from oil as a major fossil fuel and turn to electricity gemerated from weather elements such as wind and solar power, and the rationale is to save the environment including potential weather and climate transformation then they are putting their hopes in the wrong basket.

In view of the predictions of catastrophic climate change, why are we spending so much on sourcing so much of our needs from electricity generated by using elements of the climate like wind and sunlight when they may not be available much longer?

The argument is not about climate change at all. It is about money.
Climate cycles do alter and the surface of the sun has an enormous effect on what happens here on earth where the oceans play and enormous part in regulating seasonal cycles and movements. Far more than pollution does.

Even the measurement of pollution is a scam.
It is usually quoted in tems of the amount of pollution per capita, which is a complete nonsense.
A small nation, sparsely populated over a relatively medium sized area is generating relatively high amounts of pollution per capita, because of the distances involved in travel and commercial distribution, but the capita amount may be relatively high. But the amount per square 100 kms is quite low.

On the other hand, industrial cities generate enormous amounts of industrial pollution with large populations, like Shenzen in China, or Los Angeles.

China produced 26 percent of global GHG emissions, nearly twice as much as the next- highest producer, the United States. New Zealand contributed 0.17 percent. The top 12 emitting countries produced nearly double the amount of GHGs produced by all other countries.

So the per capita amount is a meaningless amount.
If you believe all the rhetoric, everything you are told, and don't analyze what's really going on, you, miss a lot.

Just like when following F1....

1-It is burning fossil fuels to create energy and CO2 that is the issue.The amount of CO2 and Methane gas is unsustainable for the planet.
2-Your supposition that changing climate will mean renewable energy from sun,wind etc won’t be an option is beyond Trump.
3-Whatever factors might have a role in causing climate change only humans can directly affect many of the factors causing this change.The other option is to shrug and wait for a mass extinction of a lot of human life in a few hundred years.
4-You are right it is all about money.The owners of fossil fuel assets will do anything to make sure they are not left with stranded assets and are sure that their money will inoculate them from the worst effects.
5-The measurement of pollution is a scam because the biggest polluters care only about self interest.Politics whether in democracies or autocracies is a fundamentally corrupt game.To ask people to do something so things will be better in 100 years even though there will be short term pain doesn’t compute in their universe.
PS I know this is off topic but I can’t allow nonsense to go unchallenged.