2011 Radical Cup Series

[Jeff 8]

Originally Posted by PVDA

But the basic "Holden" V6 Buick engine also was more than 20 years old when they picked it as the new Commodore engine.

I'm pretty sure the 5 litre V8 had fuel injection by then as well.

Didn't Indy Lights run the same Buick V6 in virtually the same cars? I always thought they should have had a 5000 V8, but perhaps they thought the chassis or our race tracks weren't up to it.

Jeff

[Jeff 8]

Originally Posted by PVDA

So how do bike engines go when a car corners?? Bike engines are designed to lean into corners but in cars the engine stays upright which would affect the oil flow.

This is the main excuse they use for Sidecars going bang as often as they do.

Mind you having seen the Wests run in the AMRS they're damn quick.

Most of the bike engined cars in the US run dry sumps and they seem to improve reliability. Dry sumps were popular in sidecars a few years ago but have fallen from favour for some reason, their cornering forces are probably not as severe as a winged car. The main reason sidecars go bang so often is trying to squeeze 200 + horsepower from a 1000cc bike engine or in the case of historics, 180 from an air cooled 1300.

Jeff

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by Jeff 8

Most of the bike engined cars in the US run dry sumps and they seem to improve reliability. Dry sumps were popular in sidecars a few years ago but have fallen from favour for some reason, their cornering forces are probably not as severe as a winged car. The main reason sidecars go bang so often is trying to squeeze 200 + horsepower from a 1000cc bike engine or in the case of historics, 180 from an air cooled 1300.

Jeff

All of the SR3 Radicals in Australia have the Powertec dry sump system fitted. Powertec are Radical's engineering arm.

The engines fitted to the SR3 are the Suzuki Hayabusa motor which was 1300cc up to 2008 and 1340cc thereafter. The majority of the Radicals in Australia are fitted with the Powertec forged stroker crank and rod upgrade kit, providing a 1500cc capacity.

Regards

Fast Eddie

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by PVDA

But the basic "Holden" V6 Buick engine also was more than 20 years old when they picked it as the new Commodore engine.

I'm pretty sure the 5 litre V8 had fuel injection by then as well.

In 1987 when Formula Australia (later badged as Formula Holden) was being developed? Only on the Giacottollo. Fuel injection V8 made its debut on the VL SS Group A SV and did not translate onto VNs immediately.

Yes the Buick was an old design, but had been developed constantly in the US in a way that hadn't been done on the venerable Holden 304 here.

And remember they were trying to keep a lid on performance. They had targetted Formula 3000 aas a ready made market for cheap second hand chassis, and a five litre stock block engine would have been a real strain on the friendship to try and squeeze one into a Ralt RT20 or March 87B, or even a venerable Ralt RT4, as some competitors, with mixed levels of success adapted Formula Atlantic chassis to the new Formula Australia regulations.

It wasn't a four cylinder and would fit into existing European designs and several local manufacturers (Elfin, Cheetah and the TAFE-Shrike project) were developing their own designs. It was as perfect as you could make it.

[GTRMagic]

The original plan for Formula Brabham was for all aluminium tubs wasnt it? F3000 had already moved to carbon.. so it was a little isolationist, like most local adaptions of international formulae....

They soon woke up when new entrants wanted to come in with the European and Japanese carbon tub Lola and Reynard

The V8 engine had too much torque for the gearbox didnt it?

Mr Muir's Lexus-powered one has had issues in the drivetrain too

[Malfunction Junction]

The original plan for Formula Brabham was for all aluminium tubs wasnt it? F3000 had already moved to carbon.. so it was a little isolationist, like most local adaptions of international formulae....

Indeed it was. I remember Mark McLaughlin telling me that Elfin had planned on building their chassis in carbon so it didn't scrunch against a wall like tin foil.....

Made quite an impression on a wide eyed teenage karter who thought year old F3 was a better choice. (I was probably wrong, I know, don't bother pointing it out)



As for sports racing, a relatively free tube frame/ally mono formula with fairly tight bodywork specs should work well. Something remarkably like Sports 2000 or V de V should do it, both of which are inhabited by a number of manufacturers, Van Dieman, Lola, Juno, Ligier to name just a few.....You can even buy a chassis kit from Brazil and finish it yourself if you like. And yes, Radical is among them. Just for background, Sports 2000 originated in the 70s, based on FF2000. Nowadays it runs a Duratec engine, just like......


Just pick one of these formulae and run with it unadulterated. The innovativeness and skill of local manufacturers will shine through! The truth is that 2a is open enough to include lots of things, not all of which are all that desirable, while setting up a specific formula risks withering on the vine of field padding.

Either S2000 or VdeV (not necessarily the endurance concept, but I'd be OK with that) might just have me dusting off the licence....

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The original plan for Formula Brabham was for all aluminium tubs wasnt it? F3000 had already moved to carbon.. so it was a little isolationist, like most local adaptions of international formulae....

They soon woke up when new entrants wanted to come in with the European and Japanese carbon tub Lola and Reynard

The V8 engine had too much torque for the gearbox didnt it?

Mr Muir's Lexus-powered one has had issues in the drivetrain too

The first carbon F3000, a Reynard, didn't arrive until 1989. FHolden planning began in earnest in 1987. Really they got overtaken by events. While perhaps they should have anticipated the trickle down from Formula 1, they did have an aluminium only rule in place which stayed in place until, I think 1992, but I suppose everyone must have known the ban would be lifted, and that might have put people off investing in Ralt RT21s, Spas, Lolas and what have you.

[Holly Wood]

Meanwhile, the new 'Supersports' category will apparently be racing at the Clipsal 500 in 2010... which is interesting.

A great thing for a new category, but let's hope there are enough cars for a full grid. I guess it can't be any more embarrassing than the 10 F3s they had last year...

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Holly Wood

Meanwhile, the new 'Supersports' category will apparently be racing at the Clipsal 500 in 2010... which is interesting.

Supersports isn't new. It's at least 6 years old, probably closer to a decade, having grown out of the CAMS white paper that advocated the elimination of Sports 1300 (as well as HQ Holdens and Formula Vee). The creation of the 1600 Formula Vee category was FVee's response, Sports 1300 (which is about 30 years old) redid their regs to allow 1100cc bike engined cars to compete against the 1300cc cars of old and called the new regs Supersports. This saw the creation/importation of cars like the Radicals, Minettis and the Prosport Mulsanne.

There are LOTS of cars about, including the Sports 1300 back history its essentially a historic category with cars like Hooper, JMW, Welsor, Prosport, Infiniti (Kaditcha), Mallock, Bulant, ASP etc all making eligible cars and apparently 1600cc car engined cars are eligible now allowing stuff like Chirons. Many of these cars are not or have not been racing for a while with only the NSW scene really all that strong.

What is interesting is that West is running the adds. Previously Wests haven't been Supersports (CAMS 2C) legal, because Wests are single seaters basically. Have they been able to be CAMS log booked now?

[scuderus]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Supersports isn't new. It's at least 6 years old, probably closer to a decade, having grown out of the CAMS white paper that advocated the elimination of Sports 1300 (as well as HQ Holdens and Formula Vee). The creation of the 1600 Formula Vee category was FVee's response, Sports 1300 (which is about 30 years old) redid their regs to allow 1100cc bike engined cars to compete against the 1300cc cars of old and called the new regs Supersports. This saw the creation/importation of cars like the Radicals, Minettis and the Prosport Mulsanne.

There are LOTS of cars about, including the Sports 1300 back history its essentially a historic category with cars like Hooper, JMW, Welsor, Prosport, Infiniti (Kaditcha), Mallock, Bulant, ASP etc all making eligible cars and apparently 1600cc car engined cars are eligible now allowing stuff like Chirons. Many of these cars are not or have not been racing for a while with only the NSW scene really all that strong.

What is interesting is that West is running the adds. Previously Wests haven't been Supersports (CAMS 2C) legal, because Wests are single seaters basically. Have they been able to be CAMS log booked now?

This new category will run to its own set of category regulations, and the cars can be logbooked 2c (Prosport Mulsanne) 2a (Radical, ADR) or category 6 (West, Speads, Minetti).

Using the name "Supersports" for this category is probebly not the best choice as it will cause some confusion at a state level, but thats what it is.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by scuderus

This new category will run to its own set of category regulations, and the cars can be logbooked 2c (Prosport Mulsanne) 2a (Radical, ADR) or category 6 (West, Speads, Minetti).

Using the name "Supersports" for this category is probebly not the best choice as it will cause some confusion at a state level, but thats what it is.

Ya think?

"We have this new car, it's a 'Supersport' but its not a Supersport." Are people going to have to make the 'quotation mark' sign while talking to describe it?

[racer69]

Not to mention the class of motorcycle known as "Supersport"

[Henry]

Question for the various Learned Ones here:

Would the Westfield XTR2 be eligible for entry as a Group 2A vehicle?

[Tony C]

If you look at the number of 'sports cars' around the country that use motorcycle engines, and the number of categories world wide, maybe its time that CAMS brought the rules into the 21st century. Its possible to have single seat and two seat in the regs.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Henry

Question for the various Learned Ones here:

Would the Westfield XTR2 be eligible for entry as a Group 2A vehicle?

Shouldn't have much of a worry as a 2A I would have thought. That 1300cc hayabusa motor might be too big for either variation of Supersports though.

[scuderus]

Originally Posted by Henry

Question for the various Learned Ones here:

Would the Westfield XTR2 be eligible for entry as a Group 2A vehicle?

Although the regs. for the national series are still being finalized, in theory the XTR2 would be fine. Our cars (minetti) run the 1300cc hayabusa and most of the radicals run a stroked 1500cc version of the hayabusa engine.

Entries so far for Clipsal are around 25 I beleive.

You could also run it in the NSW racing and sports cars category that replaced the 2C supersports category from the start of this year.

Results

cheers

[Tony C]

So does anyone know what rules they are running? Do they have a capacity limit? Does anyone have a lease drive available yet?

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Henry

Question for the various Learned Ones here:

Would the Westfield XTR2 be eligible for entry as a Group 2A vehicle?

Not a 2A car. Could most probably be logbooked as 2C.

If you have some idea relevent to 2A eligibility somewhere it would be wise not to try and be too secretive-it can only hurt you in the long run if you do not ask the right question in the right place!

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Tony C

If you look at the number of 'sports cars' around the country that use motorcycle engines, and the number of categories world wide, maybe its time that CAMS brought the rules into the 21st century. Its possible to have single seat and two seat in the regs.

Not a great fan of CAMS in a lot of areas-- but there is a process that already exists and is representative that has created applicable regs.
Where CAMS gets it wrong when they ignore their own process and puts commercial interests ahead of that process.

[scuderus]

Originally Posted by Tony C

So does anyone know what rules they are running? Do they have a capacity limit? Does anyone have a lease drive available yet?

Hi Tony

The regs. will be released in a few weeks. I will post up once I recieve them.

I do know that the capacity limit will be set at 1600cc and that a capacity to weight scale (including driver) will be more than likely used.

You could try West or Radical for lease drives but I think they are all gone, but for 80k I can have a brand new Minetti (including a brand new 0km 2009 hayabusa engine) ready that will have no troubles running with the wests and radicals at half the cost

cheers

[scuderus]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Not a 2A car. Could most probably be logbooked as 2C.

If you have some idea relevent to 2A eligibility somewhere it would be wise not to try and be too secretive-it can only hurt you in the long run if you do not ask the right question in the right place!

Hi Silver

The westfield I would think would be logbooked 2A, the same as the radicals.
2C has a 1100cc limit for bike engined cars.

cheers

[Crash Test]

Or you could get a Prosport

What about one offs like the Hooper (or Hooper mk2 in the works), the Chiron (?), with a heap more cars around here in Queensland, such as the Whittaker's Audi look-a-like.

How about the older Sports 1300s?

[scuderus]

Originally Posted by Crash Test

Or you could get a Prosport

What about one offs like the Hooper (or Hooper mk2 in the works), the Chiron (?), with a heap more cars around here in Queensland, such as the Whittaker's Audi look-a-like.

How about the older Sports 1300s?

Yep, or a prosport (but I dont make anything then )

I believe that the chiron has already entered.
Im not sure about one-offs, but at a guess they would be on a case by case basis. We have been told that reliability and support (spares etc) are paramount.
If only half the field fronts up for the last race, we may not get invited back.
This may work against the one-offs.

Front egined cars are not eligable, so I think that would rule most sports 1300's out.
The sports 1300's are however having there own "lakeside cup" next year, would be great to see all those cars runs again.

cheers

[ff s conscience]

bump


hey scuderus, you there?

[rdmdog]

Why is this in amongst the Touring Car threads?