Montoya deserved a 10s Stop-Go

[Dr. Austin]

Originally posted by Tristan
Austin: there was nothing wrong with the start. At all. From any party. What's the solution?? Ban defensive lines??

A swerve is not a defensive line.

The rules are written in black and white. It is illegal to make "manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction." If the swerve was not "premature," just where the hell was he going, the apex?

Then there is also; "more than one change of direction," which is also expressly forbidden. Schu did go hard right and then move to the left again. That is two changes of direction. Please show me in the written rules where even one change of direction is allowed.

And finally,

" any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited."

Schu's swerve was designed for nothing more than obstructing Juan from passing him.

[airmon]

After the race, I replayed my tape of the race to watch the start. Even though Malaysian TV did a lousy job( was everything grey on your set too?) and the viewpoint was from far away, it seemed fairly apparent that MS had enough room to make the turn.
Many of those behind him took the corner far inside of the line that MS used, and there was another car width between MS and the inside of the corner. It looked to me like he understeered into the incident just as JPM claimed.
That said, I still think it was just a racing incident. I don't believe that JPM deserved the penalty.
I'm an MS fan.

[EERO]

Dr. Austin, its a pleasure to have you here. Tristan, he is absolutely right, "A swerve is not a defensive line." Eatapc has been addressing this issue a lot in his time here and I have to say that I agree with him. The start line chop perfected by TGF is not racing, its thuggery. Its only a matter of time before some one is killed.


Today, in what was clearly a racing incident between two men who will NOT give ground to one another, the obvious leader at the corner, Montoya, was penalized and Schumacher wasn't. Once again we have an incident which clouds the supposed impartiality of Team Bernie towrds Schumacher and Ferrari. We can say repeatedly that there is no conspiracy, and yet these incidents consistently play out in Schumacher's favor. Bouncey, I agrre with your assessment, my wife and I looked at each other as he made his statement that the penalty seemed harsh and our jaws dropped.

Finally, this was perhaps the worst coverage that I have ever seen of an F1 race-what imbecile was directing the world feed? The footage is out there and we haven't seen it.

[botsquad]

tgf lost the position..........
then......rather then lose momentum.....
and perhaps another position.......


he whaks jpm..............

so....of couse....jpm is given a penaltyl.......
for not giving way to tgf.............

no wonder button parked on the last lap....
else he might have been black flagged.

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by EERO


"The start line chop perfected by TGF is not racing, its thuggery."

Remember the squeeling that went on after Coul chopped TFG at Hockenheim 2000? It's just fine when the schu is dishing it out, but TGF's fans just go "appopleptic" when it's done to him. It IS thuggery. It is "back off or die." It is high speed chicken. It is not sport. It is also expressly illegal.




"Its only a matter of time before some one is killed."

And then, the FIA will do what it always does, it will panic. There will be such an overreaction that passing will be outlawed. There will be such hysteria that we will see tire chicanes on every straight and penalties for getting too close.




"Today, in what was clearly a racing incident between two men who will NOT give ground to one another, the obvious leader at the corner, Montoya, was penalized and Schumacher wasn't."

Funny how the same people who insist the leader has the right of way whenever it is Schumacher, now don't see it the same way.

[Don K]

Originally posted by strad
Let's see Juan was half a car ahead of Mike

I'ld like to see that.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Piquet
What are you talking about??? The reason the pole position is on the left hand side of the track is because that side is on the racing line i.e. usually more grip /less dust etc. if the car on pole position gets his start right & with launch control, thats not too hard! - he should not have to cut across to the other side.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think the rule allowing only one swerve is a good one - but !! What does annoy me is the fact that JPM got penalised for absolutely nothing and some people are trying to make out that it was his fault!!!!!!

As far as I know, he was punished because of some obscure rule saying that he should have done more to avoid the incident. I think such a rule should never be inforced in the first corner, which is already dangerous enough without drivers taking evasive actions just in case.

[Jay]

Did we every hear exactly why Montoya received the penalty????? Surely there's some explanation somewhere.... if not things need to be changed..

I thought the first corner incident was purely two aggressive guys getting a little too aggressive...nothing more..no need for penalties. At the time I wondered if Montoya received it for something else unseen while climbing through the field, or even something from back on the grid.... which is why I'd like to see the explanation.

Yes, the chop across the other guys nose on teh start seems to be as standard in F1 as drafting is in Nascar... It happens in every race, sometimes unseen, as it happens in the back or mid-field too. Awfully hypocritical of Schumi to do it after telling everyone to be careful at the start...

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Don K
I think such a rule should never be inforced in the first corner, which is already dangerous enough without drivers taking evasive actions just in case.

isn't this what hiedfeld was trying to do when he accidently took half the field out at oz?

[Don K]

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
Then there is also; "more than one change of direction," which is also expressly forbidden. Schu did go hard right and then move to the left again.

Actually, he did go right and stayed on the right side, at least until they were out of camera-sight (turning right into the corner).

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jay


"Awfully hypocritical of Schumi to do it after telling everyone to be careful at the start... "

First I agree with Liz and now you. People are going to get scared.

This is what i wrote last year after Monza. schumacher tried to get the entire grid to agree to no passing until after the Goodyear chicane. He was conserned about safety. Here is how i thought the conversations might have have gone.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Image the scene. Schui walks over to JV's grid slot. he is in the car waiting for the start and he is surrounded by his team. Mikey says to JV; "You know Jacques, I am very conserned about safety and........." And the entire BAR team goes hysterical laughing.

Next, same senerio with Button, only this time Button is sitting on the Benneturd's front wheel flirting with a grid girl. "You know jenson, I am very conserned about safety and the start..." Jenson scratches his chin thoughtfully. "You're trying to s*** me, right?" And the entire Benneturd loses it.

Now becoming more frustrated by the second, Schumacher finally comes to Mika's grid slot. "Mika, the start is going to be pretty dangerous..." Mika smiles and says " "Now is Ralf going to swerve too?" And of course, the entire McLaren team loses it.

Unable to get any support from the people who are already on to him, Schui turns to his brother for support. "Sure, Mikey, pass me on the right. Next to the pit wall." Mikey just gives him a blank stare.


Next up is Coulthard. Schui expresses his consern. Coul calmly says to Mikey "Sure. You can't punt me up the butt if I stay behind you." And the rest of the McLaren team goes berserk with laughter.

And Rubins response? "Yes master. May I please now sniff your butt?" And of course nothing happpens because the entire Ferrari team has seen it a hundred times.

Had Montoya started behind Schui, the response would have been "Go ahead and hold back, you pussy. I'll put you in the trees when I go by." You know what the Williams team would then do.

[Don K]

Originally posted by mr v
isn't this what hiedfeld was trying to do when he accidently took half the field out at oz?

Not exactly what I said, but perfectly in line with what I meant.
I think drivers should use their own common sense when it comes to taking evasive actions in the first corner.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Jay
Did we every hear exactly why Montoya received the penalty????? Surely there's some explanation somewhere.... if not things need to be changed..

There must have been something on the data-screen that the teams (and the reporters) have.
I don't remember exactly what the reporter said, however.

[BBKing]

Originally posted by Jay
Did we every hear exactly why Montoya received the penalty????? Surely there's some explanation somewhere.... if not things need to be changed..

THe only explanation is that Schumacher ordered the FIA puppets to make something about it. Just like they did to Zonta some time ago. At the end of the race Schumacher says it was not fair but they do it time and time again. What can we do? FIA rules F1 and Schumacher rules FIA. Simple

[paulzinho]

Have Max or bernie commented on it yet?

I'd love to hear what they've got to say!

[EERO]

mariov, I think your comments may have been just a little over the top. May I take this opportunity to remind you of our policy to atack the post and not the poster.

[Marshal]

So, a racing incident, where one of the protagonists gets a penalty, the other (who may have been slightly more responsible, but hey, like I said racing incident) doesn't. And people wonder why Ron gets paranoid

I think that was the worst stewards decision I've ever seen.

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Marshal :

"I think that was the worst stewards decision I've ever seen."

Every time they let a startline swerve go unpunished, they are making a bad decision. If anyone deserved a stop go, it was the guy who swerved in direct violation of the FIA's written rules. JPM didn't break any rules, so what could this possibly be about if it isn't favortism?

[Reido Rules]

Schumacher has gone up in my estimation because he wa willing to make all these 'loyal' fans with wakey views look stupid, which is something he never useually does. But he definately gave an honest answer.

The Ferrari Understeered and because of that there is no blame, neither driver could have predicted such understeer.

Martin Brundel says there is no possible rule that JPM's aledged indisscression breaks,

Being a JV fan I can't help but think it's anti Williams (Suzuka 97, Jerez 97, Nurnbergring 01 Suzuka 01 and more I don't have on the top of my head) but I know that can't be the real story.

There is a small rumour that JPM indesgressed a white line of the start, not a jump start, but he pulled accross one of the white lines either side of the track, and having studied all views and telemetry available I can't find any indessgression of this nature. But I spose that the main reason behind this penalty was FUN or a drunken steward.

I too was very pleased to see the introduction of the drive-through penalty as it is way more fairer, 10sec pens did wreck races and very quite unfair.

[strad]

Let's get this straight..much as I don't like MS...the rule says you can make one move to block and then you can make one move to return to the line for the corner...
I don't mind arguing but let's get facts straight.
To swerve right to block Juan was questionable but legal.
Questionable you say,,,Why questionable?,,,because Michael was obviously more concerned with blocking Juan than having the correct line into the corner,,,he out foxed himself by charging to the right and putting himself off line. He flat blew it and didn't show that intelligence his fans like to think he has.
I think when he found himself so horribly off line he tried to bully Juan to the left to achieve a better line and Juan just wasn't into backing off to let him through..
Michael was a bonehead.
If you look there was room for Rubens to take the corner INSIDE of the both of them,,so Juan not leaving Michael enough room is pure bull.

[paulzinho]

Rubens could take the inside because once Michael mad contact drifting outwide was inevitable, two cars with interlocked wheels won't turn properly. So the amount of room left is being exaggerated but JPM left enough.

[strad]

. The same
penalty shall be applied to drivers who swing from one side of the
track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from
overtaking.
Explain how this doesn't apply to Michaels swerve.

[strad]

However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging
from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of
dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race.

[J.McClane]

Monty didn't get a 10 sec stop/go penalty....he was the 1st driver to get the new drive through penalty.
But yeah he didn't deserve it anyway, must be great being Shu, gettin' paid all that money and still havin' enough left after bribin' the officals.......just a joke by the way

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by strad

"Let's get this straight..much as I don't like MS...the rule says you can make one move to block and then you can make one move to return to the line for the corner...
I don't mind arguing but let's get facts straight."

Fine. Provide the facts. Show us a link to written rules that say just that.


"To swerve right to block Juan was questionable but legal."

From the FIA rulebook; " However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature changes of direction, more than one change of direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised,"

Sounds to me like what TFG did on the start and what he may have done in the corner. Not enough clear video to access what happened in the corner, but the start was crystal clear.






"Questionable you say,,,Why questionable?,,,because Michael was obviously more concerned with blocking Juan than having the correct line into the corner"

Do you mean a "manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature changes of direction,"





"Michael was a bonehead."

Now we are getting somewhere.






"If you look there was room for Rubens to take the corner INSIDE of the both of them,,so Juan not leaving Michael enough room is pure bull."

To be fair, by the time Rubens got there, they were already locked together and sliding out of the way. But from JPM's in car camera, it did look like he gave him enough room. From the helicopter camera, though, before it cut away, it looked like JPM had squeezed TFG onto the curb. The video of the collision just isn't good enough to really make it black andd white.