Petition for a Unified Series

[Dov]

Jay...soon there won't be any money for Chris Pook to spend and then what?

[Jay]

lol...to get a business started you have to spend money it's that simple. Cart has two...perhaps 3 if Ford helps out some more seasons to get the series to a point that it can sustain itself. There will obviously be spending a lot more than they are taking in to get the ball rolling. Yet, everyone here seems ready to say it's a failure, when it's barely even begun yet.

[Lee Janotta]

So are you going to lambast anyone who doesn't cheerlead, Jay? Are you going to call for boycotts of cities that host IRL races instead of CART? Are you going to start hearding people to events like cattle? Because that's what it's going to take to keep the series viable in the states if it's dragged farther away from it's roots.

We've tried just being the best series. It didn't work! There are real reasons CART's public profile is in the toilet, and cheerleading and Pookfare will not solve them.

[power&glory]

Hey- and this is the same thing i said when i signed- when we go to V10's in 05 or whatever, why doesn't the irl just go to the same formula, and then we would have two series with int'l manufacturers (if Merc or Audi or whoever come) and identical engine formulae (and thus strikingly similar chassis) and it wouldn't make sense to do this- it would only be practical to merge, right? We could just start there and then get everybody together and work out the details (like venues, sponsors, teams/drivers, etc.). It seems to make sense to me.

[Dov]

You only need to look at the figures, to see that it's failing.

[Lee Janotta]

It would make sense to _us_, but you're missing a lot of steps there, power&glory.

The whole point of these threads, really, is to establish the mandate from the fans that Mario will need in order to get the ball rolling.

[Jay]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
So are you going to lambast anyone who doesn't cheerlead, Jay? Are you going to call for boycotts of cities that host IRL races instead of CART? Are you going to start hearding people to events like cattle? Because that's what it's going to take to keep the series viable in the states if it's dragged farther away from it's roots.

We've tried just being the best series. It didn't work! There are real reasons CART's public profile is in the toilet, and cheerleading and Pookfare will not solve them.

Attendance has never been Cart's problem, and you know that.

Cart isn't trying to be the best series. Cart is trying to be an American version of F1, albeit slightly below F1. Personally, I'd much rather see Cart work with Bernie an F1, than Tony George as you lot want.

Cart's public profile is in the toilet because of years of mismanagement. It's improving, and Pook has helped HUGE. Heck, we'd be dead by now if it wasn't for Pook. But, there is still a lot of work to do. And the best thing you as a fan can do, is encourage sponsors to get involve, encourage media outlets to give more coverage to Cart, and let Cart know what you think. You may consider it cheerleading, but people do listen. And I think the task of turning Cart into a financially viable entity is much easier than that of bringing the IRL and Cart toghether.

You might not like it as well, but running around saying that Cart is doomed is well...pretty much ensuring it. If I'm a sponsor considering putting some money down on a car and I see that the series fans are saying this, I'll look elsewhere. And don't think for a second they aren't looking here. You'd be surprised who reads these boards.

[norman-normal]

Lee you have been trying to convince everyone that CART is done and Pook is a moron, or Brittish secret agent sent to steal our American CART.

With all these extravagant warrnings of CARTs impending downfall, the IRL seems designed just for you.
Am I wrong? is there any thing you dislike about thier system ? how bout Tony George, what kind of a fellow do you thing he is?

It all seems very strange to me.

[Dov]

I guess norman and jay would prefer CART to become F1 light!

[norman-normal]

I like it just the way it is the way its heading.
I have no fasination with things I don't like. Do you find that strange Dov?

[veeten]

then again, maybe it wouldn't be so bad to return to those days...

When the Hulman-George Family (IMS) and the Agajanian Family (USAC) were running things, and the teams & drivers were at the mercy of them in every respect. It wasn't until the first rumblings of rebellion were heard originally in the pits, and ultimately leading up to the famous "White Paper" written by Gurney, that announced the intentions of those that were the "bread & butter" of open wheel racing in the US.

Expecting IMS to remove Tony George is like the Vatican looking to excommunicate Pope John Paul II, not very likely. The main reason as to why he left the BoD in '95 was primarily that the IMS wasn't going to be the centerpiece in CART's championship, while the Indy 500 was a major race in it's own right. I also do believe that it was Foyt, Unser, Mears, Rutherford, and a few others that went walking out that door along with him to persue the IRL's birth. A lot of them couldn't come to grips with the new direction that open wheel racing was taking at that time. Most were too used to the familarity of ovals to contemplate any other form, and to some points would have major problems with their inclusion in any form larger than two races involving such.

Substituting some of the ovals would be an addition, but one has to remember just whom owns them; SMI & ISC. And if you think that they won't try and make CART pay through the nose for race dates, then there's a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to interest you in...

Then there's the possibility of limiting overseas exposure by curtailing present & future dates, but with present buisness culture being multi-national one just can't afford to do this. Not to mention chilling any future fan growth outside of North America. The present & future plans for expansion of race dates are only for 2 races, in Europe and the Far East, while the majority of the season (15 races out of 20) will be in the US, Canada, and Mexico.

A lot of this is based more on wishful thinking of a great return to Indy, unfortunately a few are having a go at trying to separate the raceway from those who own and operate it.

Sorry, but that's my reason for not signing it.

[Dov]

Norman....I told you in a earlier thread that I respect Pook and I think he has done a great job in keeping CART alive, but as each day goes by, I'm not sure he (CP) is taking CART in the right direction. If you go over to the IRL forum and look at (read the threads) the topic I posted called "One Open Wheel Racing Series", you might understand were we are coming from. After that, if you still think CART is headed in the right direction, then so be it.

P.S. We are no fans of Tony George!

[Lee Janotta]

That's dirty pool, Norman. Would you have called me a traitor when I was yelling for Heitzler's head on a plate?

I suppose there's not much I can do, if you simply won't accept the reality that CART's identity are finances are a muddled mess. But clearly you're running out of arguments if you have to take shots at me just because I don't consider the other side to be a bunch of beer-swilling rednecks beneath my contempt.

Veeten, although I'm dissapointed you won't sign, I'm glad that you understand that this is a more complex issue than us vs. the Antichrist, Tony George.

Foyt, Unser and the others threw their support to TG for entirely valid reasons. CART got way too damn cocky once Chevy, then Alfa, Ford and Honda, then Mercedes, showed up. Team owners were becoming millionaires, and it looked like the sky was the limit. Brazilian, Asian and European drivers with big sacks of money were lining up around the block to buy seats in the series. International dates were giving the series a whole new level of visibility.

But CART was starting to rot away at it's core. Those moneid drivers were taking seats away from drivers who'd spent their whole lives just wanting to win Indy. When a 19 year-old kid from Indiana (though originally from California) stunned the country's open-wheel cognescenti by annihilating the opposition to win the USAC Silver Crown, then was unable to find a ride at Indy and had to go to f*****g NASCAR to make a living, the seeds of rebellion were sown. When it happened again in 1995 to the first driver in history to win the USAC midget, sprint, and Silver Crown national championships all in the same year, it was the last straw for people who believed, crazily enough, that there should actually be more natives than foreigners racing in the top open-wheel series on the continent!

At the same time, some of these same people were team owners, and were feeling increasingly squeezed by the rapidly rising costs of competing. The only way for them to survive was to bring costs down. By siding with Tony George, they believed they were accomplishing both goals: creating a place where the best native talent could compete, and where costs would be kept reasonably under control. The all-oval format was incedental to the whole idea.

Sadly, they've now been pounded just as raw by Tony George as we have. Traitors like Andretti, Ganassi and Penske are doing the same damage there as they have here. We have a common enemy, people!

But y'know what? If a bunch of damn snobs would rather turn this into F1 lite than even think of compromise, fine.

Just keep it the hell out of my backyard, because I won't let a goddam Eccelstone-run series stunt the growth of whatever springs up here to replace both CART and the IRL!

[Hsaavedra]

It's been a long time since I posted but here goes: To the guys that are signing the petition send that over to the Speedfreaks, they'll make sure to get it noticed. My opinion on the unified series is this: As long as Tony and Chris run the show in the respective series nothing will get done, it might as well turn into Premier 1 at Indy. I believe that CART needs to take a page fromm NASCAR's book: Screw the democracy and make Mario Andretti Supreme Dictator of CART and go private. With his name recognition people will become interested in what he does, therefore bringing in casual fans and more attention from mass media. I also believe bringing in Ferrari as an engine supplier would spell death for the IRL, but I doubt that would happen because of their commitment to F1. Anyway just my .02 take it or leave it.

[norman-normal]

VEETEN thank you the information in your well reasoned reply.

Lee what you said has nothing to do with 90% posts. From what I've seen you are an extreamly negitive rampaging basher. I wish we could have got you on the O.J.Simpson jury.

[Jay]

Originally posted by Dov
I guess norman and jay would prefer CART to become F1 light!

Yes! I'd much rather have F1-lite than the IRL... Clearly that's what some here want - a series with more Americans in it, more wheel to wheel action, more crashes, the Indy 500, etc etc. The series you want is already there, so I don't see why you hang around here.

[Dov]

Jay, I have been watching IndyCar (CART) since the early 80's and I have attended almost every Molson Indy in Toronto. The highest quality of racing in CART was between 1985-1995. Would I like to go back to that period of racing? Your dam right I would! But I am also a realist. We can't go back in time, but I don't see why we can't bring some of that hight quality racing from that period into today's racing. I hate the IRL and I will never forgive TG for what he did to OW racing in North America. I feel that both CART and the IRL are in trouble and they could fold within the next 5-10 years. I'm hoping that CP can bring CART back to it's glory days, but I am not holding my breath. Lee and I feel that a united OW racing series is the only way to go, because there is no alternative. The series would have the best tracks (RC's,Ovals,Street,Airport) and the best drivers (from CART+IRL).

Jay, I don't no how long you have been watching IndyCar (CART), but maybe you forgot that the series is based in the U.S. (Indianapolis to be exact). It is not based in England or Italy!! WE DON'T want to turn this United Open Wheel Racing Series into an all American (all oval) series. We feel that drivers should be hired based on merit and not what country they come from. But, we also feel that a united series that has it's roots based in the U.S., should have more then 2 American drivers representing it. Remember the Andretti's, Unsers, Gurney, Foyt, Mears, Sullivan and Rahal. Could you imagine if 18 drivers in F1 were from North America and only 2 drivers were from Europe!?

Are you telling me that you don't like any oval races Jay? From reading your threads, you seemed to enjoy the oval race in Germany. I, like yourself, am mainly a road course fan (also a few street courses), but I feel there are 5 oval tracks that create exciting racing...MIS, Milwaukee Mile, Fontana, Phoenix and the Indy 500. In a united series, I would like to see wheel to wheel action (no crashes) on every course(RC's/Ovals/Street Courses/Airport). Jay, if you want to stick it out with Pook, then be my guest...there is still a part of me that hopes you are right. I am tired of sitting on my hands and doing nothing. This dream of ours (the Snout,Lee and myself) may not come true...but some dreams do. If YOU are a fan who want's to help change OW racing in North America for the better, then please stand up and be heard. Sign the petition. Let's unite CART and the IRL! Mario thinks we should and with his help...anything is possible!

[Jay]

Well, very well put Dov! No, I haven't been following racing for as long as most, and my first race was in 1996.

With regard to American drivers, the simple fact is taht there are not many young ones (watch the Red Bull guys get eaten alive) that can compete with the top drivers in the European junior categories, and thus the best right now are not American. So, if there are only 2 Americans that can be in the series for funding or skill reasons...so be it. The other option is that the series fund American drivers over others...I suppose it could happen, but it doesn't say much about the series.

No, I'm not a big fan of oval races. The one in Germany was more entertaining because the drivers were driving as if they were on a road course, very aggressively. Also, for the most part these drivers do not want that many ovals. Which is why if we do have them, I'd say 3 or max 4. And that's more than some drivers would like...

We've tried to make compromise to work with the IRL, and it is a large part of the reason we're in the situation we are now. We really ****ed off both Honda and Toyota bending over backwards to please the IRL...so they just said hell with us. As Chris Pook put it once, we've extended the olive branch to the IRL many times only to have it snapped in half. And almost every time we've done so, Cart has been the one to suffer the most. So, put simply, I'll sign the petition, and support a merger of Cart and the IRL when Tony George is out of IMS. I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by norman-normal
nothing to do with 90% posts.

Huh? Speak English you twit. You've been nothing but ill-mannered and intolerant of other's opinions since you arrived on ten-tenths. You make assumptions about people you've never met.

Jay, if you didn't have Tony George to hate, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on with this issue. And I hate him too. I hate what the IRL is, a series full of traitors and just as many damn pay drivers as we have, where the best driver in the field (Sam Hornish) is relegated to midfield because he doesn't have one of the fancy new Japanese powerplants and a massively wealthy team.

But dammit, you missed the best of this series by not watching until '96, and frankly, while I do still respect you, you don't know what you're missing!

I'm not looking for a merger here... Both series have too much baggage. I'm looking for Mario and some of the other elder statesmen to grab this sport by the scruff of the neck and shake some sense into it!

[Jay]

normal-normal, Lee....both stop with the personal attacks. If he attacks you, don't respond, just hit the warn button and leave a note to the mod.

Lee, if it wasn't for Tony George, we wouldn't be in this whole mess. Heck, we might be competing with Nascar... But, that has not happened..and we are where we are and have to deal with that. We don't have a time machine.

I may not have only begun following racing in 1996, but I feel that's irrelevant. This is not 1996. Many of the young drivers coming into the series have no more of an idea than I do about where Cart was.

If there's any way Mario or anyone else can help, it's by convincing the sponsors and people with money in the sport that a merged series would be best. As much as I like mario, I'm not sure he has that much clout with Tony George, ISC, Honda, Toyota, Ford, Bridgestone, etc, etc.

As much as I appreciate the use of petitions, etc. I've never in my short little life seen a petition work for anything. I have however seen letter writing campaigns work..a lot. Which is why I say, you'd be much better off taking the blurb you'd put on a petition and sending it to the parties involved. 100 well worded letters from fans will mean more to them than a petition with 10,000 or even 100,000 signatures.

[Lee Janotta]

That's what the warn button's for? Hmm...

Not really Jay. TG provided the finance, but the _will_ for the IRL insurrection came from an alienated element of the sport, as I've said.

Mario's clout is with the fans and teams... And if he can gather some allies without compromising his position, he can use us to force the changes. If the fans and teams move, the sponsors and manufacturers will follow, and everyone else will _have_ to get in line. And we'll all be a lot better off in the end. Well, except for TG and some pay hacks who'll be thrown out on their butts.

[Jay]

Tony George formed the IRL because Cart wouldn't let him have his way with the series....he was the alienated element you speak of. He was upset that indy was being looked at as just another race. He conceived, financed, organized, and kept afloat the IRL to this day. he is 100% responsible for its existence, and I'd say responsible for the split. If someone else had been in charge of IMS, odds are we wouldn't be in this situation now.

You've followed racing for a while though, so I would think you'd be used to the idea of "pay hacks"... they're in every series from FF to F1, there used to be a lot more of them in your glory days. They're a part of racing, and a necessity for a full grid in most series...especially when the sponsors look elsewhere. Some of them turn out to be pretty good... Alonso was a pay driver at Minardi.

Has Mario even expressed any interest in this? It would be great if he did, but the task is so huge... Like I said before, if fans want to act, they know who the players are. And they should make themselves known in person, or if that's not possible written letter or email.

[Lee Janotta]

You should have been watching Wind Tunnel on Friday night, Jay. This is what Mario was talking about!

Your understanding of the split is flawed... You won't be able to really grasp Indycar racing until you get that straight, Jay. Nobody dictates to A.J. Foyt, certainly not a punk like Tony George, but he was one of the first to go to the IRL. Whether we had two series or one right now, CART would still be losing it's roots and bringing in more incompetent rich boys, and the hard-core open-wheel fans in the states would still feel completely alienated. We'd probably look more like F1 now... Little real racing, costs out of control, teams folding left and right....

[Jay]

Lee, from reading your posts here, I'd say your understanding of the racing world in general is flawed. You're a great fan, but seem to be a dreamer and disconnected from the reality that is the racing both in the business and on the track. Tony George was the one who got the ball rolling, he had allies such as Foyt, but that doesn't change the fact that it was TG that did it! Maybe they were a part of a group that wanted an American-only series, but that's all gone out the window now, and TG's true colours are showing. It was not about Americans, etc, etc...it was about money and egos. That's why Penske went, that's why Ganassi and Green went as well.......money!

Like I said before, it has nothing to do with incompetent rich boys. They are in EVERY series, Cart, IRL, Nascar, F1, Formula Atlantic, Formula Ford, Formula Renault, Formula 3, Formula 3000, every form of motorsports! And that's not something that's going to change, even if the series is healthy. Many of the rich boys actually help fund the guys getting their rides on talent.

If the split hadn't happened, we'd still be struggling a bit, all sports are (hockey, baseball, basketball are all suffering economically), but it would probably not be nearly as grave.

[Liz]

Lee is, ahem, quite young and seems to be hearkening back to some form of racing that never existed at all except in the imaginations of elderly American oval racers. As one who has been there since Nazareth was a dirt track, and as one who has seen Formula One change radically at least 16 times, I am much more sanguine about the pace of change and the fact that the product that comes out of change is nearly always better than the teeth-gnashers think it will be and never as good as the imaginary past would have been if it hadn't been imaginary.

One of the greatest Formula One races ever to be held had only FOUR CARS in it -- and the battle between two of those cars is still talked about today as one of the epic racing battles of all times. It was held during a time of extreme turmoil in the sport, both on the track and off, when everyone thought that Formula One was doomed, and during a general strike that prevented most teams from even bringing their cars to the track.

That was the epic race between Villeneuve and Arnoux at Dijon.

And a lifetime later, Formula One continues, not in the form we old timers (REAL old timers, not putative ones like Lee ) would have preferred, but in some form, despite that turmoil and a whole lot more.

Champ Cars will do the same. And I am firmly convinced that the people who love it are the ones who will lead it there, not those who prefer to trumpet to all and sundry that it's no use, that it's never going to live. These, I suspect, were the same people telling Mrs. Zanardi to give up and fold her hands, her husband was going to die.

Life and Death are not as simple as they look on television. You can't always tell.