[Rules] How about an electric powered series

[ptclaus98]

I hope it goes through. Someone needs to make it viable, and motorsports is the best, and most efficient venue with which to refine EV technology. And the Formulec EF01 is a good looking car, and a great place to start with this.

[Peter Mallett]

*Ahem* Seen this thread?

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127581

[stripedcat]

If we do see electric cars racing, it will mean the end of the manual gearbox. The cars will have reverse, neutral, and forward(or drive like in an automatic).

Realistically if hydrogen becomes the new fuel, this could happen. Although I would hate to see an accident involving two hydrogen cars. Maybe battery powered ones(like the Tesla) would be more safer.

[Bodysnatcher]

Iceland tried hydrogen, but the manufacturers make electric cars, so the hyrogen fuelled experiment just sort of came to a halt.

[Purist]

Hydrogen is by quite a margin the least practical of any of the methods discussed here. And considering how poorly many people maintain their cars already, I don't want to think about those things being all over the regular roads.

Sound is essential for racing in my mind. I'm also a music lover, and enjoy a good movie. So, how about this? I'll giving up my noisy cars when you give up all your John Williams, Hans Zimmer, David Arnold, James Horner, Danny Elfman, and A. R. Rahman movie soundtracks. Sound fair?

But seriously, as has been said by many a person, "Sound carries the emotion of a situation." Or if you prefer, realize that what we perceive starts with our senses. And I would submit to you that perceiving speed (the one truly modern sensation) is as much a matter of hearing a sound from the vehicle that automatically tells you it's being pushed to the limit, as is the function of seeing it go by you at high speed.

The day the racing goes silent is the day it dies, because, on that day, the ONLY people who care anymore will be the ones who have a passion about that electrical technology, NOT for the racing. And that group will NOT be anywhere near large enough to support the sport. The rest of us will either find other sports, or have to watch recordings of old races in perpetuity, but we simply won't get that "rush" any longer.

As for power generation, dams are being found to be extremely harmful to their waterway environments, not to mention the downstream soil conditions Wind and solar are horribly space inefficient, and household systems to nip that issue are nowhere near being affordable in the mainstream. Also, you have to put up those arrays or turbines in places people don't mind seeing being "spoiled", as well as avoiding areas that have a strong NIMBY bent. At the same time, they have to be in adequately sunny/windy regions to be useful on the whole. And I don't see any new nuclear powerplants being approved for a while now, for obvious reasons.

I suppose we'll see when push comes to shove if the oil companies find a way to exploit the oil shale out there, which would massively increase our potential reserves.

Of course, I don't see why we don't just transition to alcohol and cellulosic fuels that can be made from industry and general waste. We can make use of existing material that's often just going to waste, and cut back down on using fuels that interfere with the food supply.

[Purist]

On a side note, even if we changed the power source for the cars, there's still the matter of finding a suitable petroleum substitute for all the rubber and plastics we make currently. Maybe the greenies ought to try tackling that problem, as, it is, if anything, even more insidious and ubiquitous an issue than is the "problem" of gasoline-powered automobiles.

O.T.-P.S. Um, seeing as how practice starts in less than 48 hours, wouldn't it maybe be about time to start a race thread for Malaysia?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Someone needs to make it viable, and motorsports is the best, and most efficient venue with which to refine EV technology. And the Formulec EF01 is a good looking car, and a great place to start with this.

Is motorsport really the best and most efficient venue to refine EV technology ? The current spec. Formula One engine - a 2.4 litre V8 that revs to 20,000 rpm - has no relevance whatsoever to anything on the road. The vast bulk of R+D that goes on in F1 is aero based - which is also socially useless.

[thebear]

Here are two links relating to batteries. The first is actually the home page for an extensive set of articles:

http://batteryuniversity.com/

The second is many screens deep into the home page but deals with some history of EVs, power density, recharge times of real world (2010) vehicles and diferences in chemistry.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ectric_vehicle

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Is motorsport really the best and most efficient venue to refine EV technology ? The current spec. Formula One engine - a 2.4 litre V8 that revs to 20,000 rpm - has no relevance whatsoever to anything on the road. The vast bulk of R+D that goes on in F1 is aero based - which is also socially useless.

I would say that the vast bulk of F1 R&D goes toward making things smaller and lighter whilst keeping the same efficiency. The only reason aero has gotten so important is because they've frozen the engine development, and the formula around the engine is strict. This would be more open, and with a one make chassis formula, the focus will be on the drivetrain, most specifically how to get it to make power as efficiently as possible, and also making it lighter and more compact. Also, racing has tended to make manufacturing processes more efficient, as well. Nowadays, even a university can make a decent carbon monocoque chassis, 20 years ago, that was unthinkable. Paddle shifters have made it to 30,000 dollar cars just some 20 years after they were experimental components in race cars.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Purist

Hydrogen is by quite a margin the least practical of any of the methods discussed here. And considering how poorly many people maintain their cars already, I don't want to think about those things being all over the regular roads.

Sound is essential for racing in my mind. I'm also a music lover, and enjoy a good movie. So, how about this? I'll giving up my noisy cars when you give up all your John Williams, Hans Zimmer, David Arnold, James Horner, Danny Elfman, and A. R. Rahman movie soundtracks. Sound fair?

But seriously, as has been said by many a person, "Sound carries the emotion of a situation." Or if you prefer, realize that what we perceive starts with our senses. And I would submit to you that perceiving speed (the one truly modern sensation) is as much a matter of hearing a sound from the vehicle that automatically tells you it's being pushed to the limit, as is the function of seeing it go by you at high speed.

The day the racing goes silent is the day it dies, because, on that day, the ONLY people who care anymore will be the ones who have a passion about that electrical technology, NOT for the racing. And that group will NOT be anywhere near large enough to support the sport. The rest of us will either find other sports, or have to watch recordings of old races in perpetuity, but we simply won't get that "rush" any longer.

As for power generation, dams are being found to be extremely harmful to their waterway environments, not to mention the downstream soil conditions Wind and solar are horribly space inefficient, and household systems to nip that issue are nowhere near being affordable in the mainstream. Also, you have to put up those arrays or turbines in places people don't mind seeing being "spoiled", as well as avoiding areas that have a strong NIMBY bent. At the same time, they have to be in adequately sunny/windy regions to be useful on the whole. And I don't see any new nuclear powerplants being approved for a while now, for obvious reasons.

I suppose we'll see when push comes to shove if the oil companies find a way to exploit the oil shale out there, which would massively increase our potential reserves.

Of course, I don't see why we don't just transition to alcohol and cellulosic fuels that can be made from industry and general waste. We can make use of existing material that's often just going to waste, and cut back down on using fuels that interfere with the food supply.

Politics.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by I Rosputnik

What about hydrogen cars?

Provided you can find a way of the engine not exploding, it would be a far more clean then electric cars.

From what I've heard and read the problem isn't the engine exploding but how to refuel the car, hence using hydrogen cells, which are then ''plugged'' in.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

From what I've heard and read the problem isn't the engine exploding but how to refuel the car, hence using hydrogen cells, which are then ''plugged'' in.

Correct. Hydrogen fuel cells are what is implied. They are used on the space shuttle and produce electricity as a chemical reaction. They do require extensive cooling of some sort to maintain the chemical stability. The car would be completely electric.

It is possible to run a car on gaseous hydrogen in a manner similar to operating it on LP gas (propane). Of course the fuel tank will be enormous due to the additional insulation required to keep the (liquid) hydrogen from boiling when not in use. Tanks would need to withstand much more than 200 bar.

The only thing coming out of the tailpipe would be harmless water vapor.

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by thebear

The only thing coming out of the tailpipe would be harmless water vapor.

Then Bernie would get his wet dream, right?

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Spritle

Then Bernie would get his wet dream, right?

Eeeeewwww!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by thebear

The only thing coming out of the tailpipe would be harmless water vapor.

As opposed to carbon dioxide and water vapour if Ethnol or Methanol are used. Personally I think either Ethnol or Methanol are preferrable than gasoline/petrol as they are less polluting and they would release many countries from the spectre of OPEC, if there is a return to the tension in the middle east, that was seen in the '70s; but will the oil companies buy into it? Not while there's oil.

[wnut]

On a different note, electric racing could bring the cars back into the central population areas due to the noise free racing, and help motor racing to be far more accessible to the general population.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

As opposed to carbon dioxide and water vapour if Ethnol or Methanol are used. Personally I think either Ethnol or Methanol are preferrable than gasoline/petrol as they are less polluting and they would release many countries from the spectre of OPEC, if there is a return to the tension in the middle east, that was seen in the '70s; but will the oil companies buy into it? Not while there's oil.

Probably more a political problem relating to the American and British economies which feed off the oil industry, probably buying up vast tracts of agricultural land to "farm" fuel while we waste our time typing!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by thebear

The only thing coming out of the tailpipe would be harmless water vapor.

Hmm.

I have often wondered whether the 'harmless water vapour' (also recognised by 'climate scientists' of all shades as the most potent 'greenhouse gas' by some distance) would be a better option to have emitted by transport and similar technologies than is that wonderful gaseous fertiliser CO2.

All 'fuels' have a production cost to convert raw materials into something more easily usable, prefereably in a form that is fairly convenient at point of use as well as being economically viable. Based on existing technology hydrogen is, at best, somewhat marginal for the foreseeable future unless a dramatic discovery changes the rules.

Electricity is closer to being somewhat viable if battery technology improvements can be attained but I suspect that most of the easier to achieve advances are already in play and they are not really enough as yet.

Once capacity and rapid charging become available in a reasonable size and cost package the bottleneck will change to the generation and distribution industries. And for personal use to be effective may mean redeveloping much of the housing stock. Not so much of a problem for most of the USA perhaps, except inner cities, but a considerable problem for Europe unless expectations of having one's personal transport available at all times just outside the door are revised.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Spritle

Then Bernie would get his wet dream, right?

That's an unpleasant thought.

[wnut]

What we really need is the ability to transmit real power, like radio signals but with significant wattages.

Until then, giant Slot Car racing sets?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by wnut

Probably more a political problem relating to the American and British economies which feed off the oil industry, probably buying up vast tracts of agricultural land to "farm" fuel while we waste our time typing!

No pollution from farming of course ... and who needs food anyway?

Mind you, so far as one can tell the ethanol industry would be a no go without government subsidies in one form or another. It's amazing how much the 'free' market needs to be distorted to force through the whims of change. There are entire new technology 'energy' industries out there that only exist because some smart people have worked out how to manipulate more and more politicians into their causes.

[wnut]

Ain't that the truth!

[thebear]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

As opposed to carbon dioxide and water vapour if Ethnol or Methanol are used. Personally I think either Ethnol or Methanol are preferrable than gasoline/petrol as they are less polluting and they would release many countries from the spectre of OPEC, if there is a return to the tension in the middle east, that was seen in the '70s; but will the oil companies buy into it? Not while there's oil.

Methanol has a high affinity for water and in one form or another it is used in colder climates to remove water that has condensed in automotive gas tanks. The water blends with the Methanol as well as the gasoline and is removed by the normal combustion process. It was the primary fuel used at Indianapolis in the Offenhauser engines. Ignition timing is critical in order to prevent melted piston crowns. Consumption was terrible and it is also hazardous to handle and store. Current automotive fuel systems will not keep water vapor from mixing with the Methanol and rendering it useless.

Ethanol has approximately 80% of the energy content of gasoline and the 10% added to US motor fuels results in approximately 10% greater consumption. Also it is made from `field corn' which is low grade and generally used as animal feed. It takes more than 5 gallons of water to make one gallon of Ethanol including what is required to grow the corn and water is getting scarce in some areas of the `corn belt'. Farmers have converted ~40% of their arable land from `food grade' corn to `field corn' as they can get a higher price for it. This has resulted in worldwide `food grade' corn shortages and price inflation on beef. Transportation must be by truck or special railcars rather than pipelines as it is corrosive in bulk and will deteriorate the pipelines. Even the 10% mix attacks the gaskets in the fuel systems of older cars. The cars built and sold in Brazil were engineered to run on that country's 25% ethanol blend many years ago.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Probably more a political problem relating to the American and British economies which feed off the oil industry, probably buying up vast tracts of agricultural land to "farm" fuel while we waste our time typing!

Well yes, as I said while there's still oil and there will be some opposition from the oil companies, not wanting to lose out on an easy buck.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by thebear

Methanol has a high affinity for water and in one form or another it is used in colder climates to remove water that has condensed in automotive gas tanks. The water blends with the Methanol as well as the gasoline and is removed by the normal combustion process. It was the primary fuel used at Indianapolis in the Offenhauser engines. Ignition timing is critical in order to prevent melted piston crowns. Consumption was terrible and it is also hazardous to handle and store. Current automotive fuel systems will not keep water vapor from mixing with the Methanol and rendering it useless.

Ethanol has approximately 80% of the energy content of gasoline and the 10% added to US motor fuels results in approximately 10% greater consumption. Also it is made from `field corn' which is low grade and generally used as animal feed. It takes more than 5 gallons of water to make one gallon of Ethanol including what is required to grow the corn and water is getting scarce in some areas of the `corn belt'. Farmers have converted ~40% of their arable land from `food grade' corn to `field corn' as they can get a higher price for it. This has resulted in worldwide `food grade' corn shortages and price inflation on beef. Transportation must be by truck or special railcars rather than pipelines as it is corrosive in bulk and will deteriorate the pipelines. Even the 10% mix attacks the gaskets in the fuel systems of older cars. The cars built and sold in Brazil were engineered to run on that country's 25% ethanol blend many years ago.

Thanks for that.