Bernoldi and Coulthard, Unsporstmanlike or Racing

[Raoul Duke]

So your saying it would have been better for them to both end up in the wall?.

[Wrex]

For a World championship winning driver I would rank it this way:

1. Passed him (well der)
2. Attempted to pass him (seriously attempted)
3. Gone wheel to wheel if required and take the risk
4. Stayed where I was looking like an idiot and got my manager to yell at him after the race.

[Tristan]

Hang on, the issue is "was it sporting behaviour or not"??

So, would pulling over and letting DC through be sporting?? In Austria when RB did it it wasn't, so why should it be here?? Ron Dennis has lost a LOT of credibility in my books in this fiasco.

Where else will you see an Arrows battling a McL?? Only at Monaco!

[Raoul Duke]

What I find a little hard to fathom is the fact that DC is being critisized for his(supposed) lack of skill in the overtaking department. Yet if he had tried something and(in doing so) put both himself and Bernoldi into the wall, I'm sure that you would have all been bagging him for being such an overambitious idiot(please correct me if I'm wrong). After all, just about everybody on this forum was willing to crusify Barrichello, earlier this year, for attemting to do the exact same things that you now say DC should have attempted.

[Tristan]

I never said he should try and punt Bernoldi off. However, he wasn't exactly pressuring him much though was he?? How many attempts did he make to pass?? 10?? Ish?? Not good enough. He didn't harry EB whenever he got lapped, instead backing off, giving him time to think. Poor show, I thought, particularly in the light of how many other people were passing without ANY problem despite more "equal" machinery. If you REALLY wanna WDC, you gotta do better! (still, tough luck, mind! McL have GOT to get it sorted, sharpish)

[Sharky]

It wasn't a brilliant drive by Bernoldi. Even the combined talents of Gaston Mazzacane and Ricardo Rosset in a Minardi (if you know what I mean) could hold up a driver as passive as DC was yesterday in Monaco. It's a no brainer.

Yesterday was the day in which DC should have shown his jerachy. To show a driver like bernoldi why he earns X million a year and why he drives for Mclaren and why he's fighting for the championship and why Bernoldi was just a pay driver driving for a modest team. But no, he just sat there waiting for Bernoldi to give him way.

The commentator was asking yesterday that if the guy behind Bernoldi would have been schu would bernoldi have let him past. And of course he would have. But not because of the whole FIA-Ecclestone-Ferrari-Mosley-Schu conspiracy that would make life impossible for any driver that gets in schu's way. It's because he has that jerarchy. Most drivers (and especially modest drivers) either respect him or fear him. I recall reading an interview by some driver some years back (I don't recall the name) and he said that there was nothing as intimidating as seeing Senna's yellow helmet on the rearview mirror. And that was more or less the same case with Schu's red ferrari. But that's something that you don't get free. They didn't earn that respect by just talking nicely to drivers or inviting them to dinner and certainly not by sending their "big brothers" (read Dennis and Haug) to bully the other driver. They earned it in the race track the hard way. And unless DC starts doing that he's bound to have similar episodes and when it happens he has to show why he's in the position he is right now.

[JeremySmith]

Liz

David Coulthard has made passes many times over the past two seasons he has proven that he is not afraid to pass,he is just careful not to make stupid mistakes and that is why he finishes races..Monaco is a very very tight circuit,of course Vestappen got passed Bernoldi they are team mates..Have you ever been to Monaco by the way..even without the armco those streets are very narrow..If Bernoldi was told to block David then Tom Walkinshaw is a bloody nit wit in my book.

What possible purpose was served by slicing in front of Coulthard when Bernoldi's mirrors were filled with a McLaren..David let Michael by and he is fighting a champinionship battle with him..Bernoldi and Arrows showed VERY poor judgment and shocking sportsmanship

[EERO]

Originally posted by Tristan
I never said he should try and punt Bernoldi off. However, he wasn't exactly pressuring him much though was he?? How many attempts did he make to pass?? 10?? Ish?? Not good enough. He didn't harry EB whenever he got lapped, instead backing off, giving him time to think. Poor show, I thought, particularly in the light of how many other people were passing without ANY problem despite more "equal" machinery. If you REALLY wanna WDC, you gotta do better! (still, tough luck, mind! McL have GOT to get it sorted, sharpish)

Tristan, a thought: If Coulthard had harried Bernoldi aggressively to the pont that the Arrows driver hit the barriers, given the confines of the course, isn't it possible that a closely following Coulthard would have been collected by Bernoldi's bouncing Arrows.

DC had to drive a patient race, and I contend that passing is reaaly not possible without the cooperation of the other driver at Monaco. The only real passing oppotrunity seemed to be in the braking zone leading into Mirabeau. The track was really bumpy; everyone jogged to avoid the big bump coming out of the Casino Square, but recall how much the fronts of the cars were moving around under braking. Lock a wheel and you'll never get the grip back. DC easily could have slid into Bernoldi and it would have been over.

Given that DC was starting at the absolute back of the pack, he made a decision that caution would undoubtedly net him a better result than intemperance. As for waiting behind the Arrows, DC knew that Bernoldi's Arrows, by design, has a smaller fuel capacity and that Bernoldi would likely be pitting sooner than Coulthard's fuel laden Macaroon (a nod to Mr. Mallet) Given that DC was potentially 3-4 seconds a lap faster, once Bernoldi pitted, DC would be well clear. He couldn't have passed anyone else easiliy and he had to accept the hand dealt to him when he stalled on the Grid. Caution was his only possible successful strategy given the circumstances.


Welcomes to Jax and Apex and anyone I may have missed. Just a quick reminder that we try to avoid personal attacks here on this forum.


Wrex? Really. Don't you know better? I won't comment if you abuse Moffat, but everyone else is off limits.

[Liz]

Sportsmanship does not consist of rolling over and playing dead because the guy behind you is a big shot. And if DC graciously gave way to TGF (in the mistaken belief that TGF will play dead for him in the future--just ask Rubens, still waiting for payback from his gracious rollover-and-play-dead riff at Montreal LAST YEAR), then too bad for him. Gracious losers are still losers.

I believe Tom Walkinshaw told his pilot to defend his line and he did so legally. As Sharky said, DC merely sat passively behind him waiting for him to realise it was The Great God McLaren Pilot and get off the piste. Or perhaps he was telephoning the McLaren pits and begging them to go down and beat up the Arrows team so they'd let him go by without his having to work at it?

As far as DC proving IN THE PAST that he could pass cars, that is a little like thinking "I was the WDC in 1968, that means I'm better than you so get off the track and let me by." It's all "What have you done lately?" in F1. Which means Racing , DC, not crying, whingeing, name-calling, finger-pointing and hiding behind your big brother's baseball bat tactics.

[Ed G]

I find it hard to believe that so many people think DC would have been able to pass so easily if he only "would have tried".

Some facts:
1. DC was running with a MASSIVE amount of fuel... obviously going for the Austrian pit-stop strategy. Albiet EB did a 1-stop race and so would have had lots of fuel on board, DC would have had the MUCH heavier car... hence out breaking was really not possible likewise accelerating out of the corners would have been hard as well.

2. The Arrows has downforce problems... they are going to be slow in the corners (hence the poor lap times). But this aslo means they are going to be running with less wing (because the have no choice) so they are going to be faster down the straights... DC wasn't able to catch up enough to do anything.

3. THis is Monaco. Verstappen with an Arrows and the Hare, Tortiose approach was the only car to do ANY real passing (that I saw anyhow). You just can't pass.

I admit DC should have tried harder... put more pressure on trying to force an error but I don't think that there are any drivers in the field given the same conditions who would have been able to make the pass and drive on to finish the race without an error by EB.

[francis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jaxs
[
The stewards put out a blue flag, Bernoldi ignored the flag and radiod the pits for a decision, or was it he didn't know what a blue flag meant? Why didn't he just move over at the sight of the blue flag?

Because the flag was BLATANTLY WRONG. It was withdrawn a couple of laps later and in my opinion that marshall should be severely reprimanded.

[francis]

On the Arows web site 71% voted that Bernoldi was right - 21% wrong. Who knows who rigged trhe voting but I voyed he was right.

Long live racing. Bullying has no place in any sport - especially F1.

Well done Enrique!

[francis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jersound
[B]Liz

David let Michael by and he is fighting a champinionship battle with him.

A lot is made of that - the fact is that DC was correctly being blue flagged and HAD to let MS by at risk of having a stop go. The criticism of DC is that he was incapable of using those opportunities to also get past EB in the wake of his lappers. Or maybe I do DC an injustice and it was more to do with EB's abilities. As far as I'm concerned it's more power to EB's elbow and I know who in my mind has increased his stature - and he's not in a silver/black car.

[Raoul Duke]

The one question I ask myself, is would Bernoldi had done the same thing if someone else was behind him. Would he have tried so agressively to defend his position had it been, say, a Benneton or a Bar behind him instead.
If he did it because he thought "this is a race and I'm perfectly within my rights to defend my position" then he did absolutely nothing wrong. But if, however he was thinking "Look at me everybody!, I know how to keep a Mclaren behind me!". Then that was just plain dumb.

[Wrex]

So what are you saying RD, that he should move over for a McLaren but not for a Benetton?

As to what he was thinking, we will never know, but you can be sure he was doing whatever Tom Walkinshaw was telling him.

[Raoul Duke]

That is not what I was saying at all. What I meant was if the reason he fought so hard to keep DC behind him was precisely because it was a Mclaren, then that was unfair. If however he was treating it just like any other situation where he is fighting for position, then he did nothing wrong.

[Wrex]

I agree RD, but his motives are unknown to us. And as I said, he would have been under team instruction anyway. As much as it pains us, we have to concede that this is a business, and TV rights keep the sponsors happy, pay for the teams to compete, and allow US the privillage of motor racing.

The reality is that sport has given way to business, whether we like it or not, and occassionally, drivers and teams will have to bowe to the masters (see Rubino @ Austria).

But, I very much doubt it was glory on Bernoldi's part, he had proven himself after 3 laps.

[BBKing]

Bernoldi has the right to do what he did, with orders from his team or not. Final result, they got the exposure they wanted and Bernoldi’s sponsors will be more than happy for such good promotional job.

From the strict racing point of view, Bernoldi missed a great opportunity. Verscrashim was able to get ahead 4 cars in a matter of a few laps, which indicates that he could have done the same. What was the point of holding up somebody for 45 laps if you have the certainty that he will be ahead of you anyway. Bernoldi could have finished in higher up and owners would have been more impressed by his overtaking abilities rather than his stubborn and dangerous attempts to keep behind a title contender.

I think that would be a good reason for him to move over. It is fine for me to hold up Schumacher in my GP3 game . I gain nothing other than pleasure out of it.

Kimi let Schumacher by in Austria and it was the right thing to do. He concentrated on his race and fought those who reasonably had a chance against. Bernoldi ignored that he is young and his ambitions in F1 have to go beyond the mere glory of the TV cameras for holding in Monaco where you do not need any special talent to do it.

DC was a prisoner of his desire to score points, even if it were only two he got at the end. He could have risked diving into Bernoldi but the risk was greater than the reward. Especially if Bernoldi was slamming the door like he was racing for his life.

Anyway, DC has my support for this year’s title. I think he deserves more than the fellow in red that in spite of having the class of the field he still needs a servant driving for him.

Lets do it DC. Go for it, you can do it. If you are able to control your frustrations the way you did in Monaco, only good things are in your near future. Do not forget to show your fingers like you did in France

[JeremySmith]

Very good BB..Well said!

[EERO]

As an added thought to this entire discussion, recall that it was Bernoldi who hit Heidfeld from behind pushing him into barrier on the exit from the Grand Hotel hairpin on the first lap. Bernoldi is hardly the shining hero in this whole event.

[stubert]

Bernoldi stayed within the rules and did his job. Thats what he gets paid for. His car was fast on the straights but slow in the corners. He did not block, you get one move and he used it. If you want to blame some one blame the guy the designed the launch control on Coultards car.

[Raoul Duke]

Wrex, I completely agree about F1 being a business. To me, personally, it devalues the whole concept of the sport. The powers that be sure do know how to make a mockery out of things when they want to

[Valve Bounce]

First of all, a big Welcome to BBKing and Stubert to our friendly forum, which is free of insults and abuse. Don't forget, if you post 1000 posts, you qualify for the lucky draw for the Ferrari - the draw is made when everyone here has posted 1000 posts.
Now to this argument about passing, this is only possible if the person ahead co-operates.
Quote from Liz:
The commentator was asking yesterday that if the guy behind Bernoldi would have been schu would bernoldi have let him past. And of course he would have. But not because of the whole FIA-Ecclestone-Ferrari-Mosley-Schu conspiracy that would make life impossible for any driver that gets in schu's way. It's because he has that jerarchy. Most drivers (and especially modest drivers) either respect him or fear him. I recall reading an interview by some driver some years back (I don't recall the name) and he said that there was nothing as intimidating as seeing Senna's yellow helmet on the rearview mirror. And that was more or less the same case with Schu's red ferrari. But that's something that you don't get free.

Well, TGF tried that trick on Alexander at the same venue and look what happened - it all ended in the barriers didn't it. As far as I am concerned, DC drove the sensible race, possibly the greatest in his career having to patienly wait behind knowing that one false move would have been "hello armco" time. And he was rewarded with 2 precious points.

I also think that Bernoldi drove a great race, resisting all that pressure from behind and not putting the Arrows into the Barrier. However, I dispute that he was "racing for position". He was not racing DC, he was just stubbornly holding him back. Racing for position is simply where there is possibility of finishing ahead of the other guy - think about the meaning of those words.
For those who want to argue about Ron, please visit the other thread, where I said that Ron shoud have been told to " GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY" OR" GET THEE HENCE AND REPRODUCE"

[Liz]

VB that was not a quotation from me. I did not and do not think anybody should bow down and let ANYBODY past just because of his name and the car he drives. Let DC eat cake.

I maintain that Bernoldi did the right thing and that only he and Jean Alesi were actually racing out there. Everyone else was driving.

[Peter Mallett]

Although some, (JPM?) weren't driving for very long.!!!!

I just can't resist that.