Occupy IndyCar & IMS

[one five five]

This anti-Randy stuff is funny. Indycar actually got some traction in 2011, the first time any AOWR series moved forward since 2002..... ChampCar collapsed years ago, i think some need to move on.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Also I boycott everything to do with the speedway and any associated sponsors of the league. I refuse to watch on tv, any articles that pop up in Motorsport or Autosport I rip them out and put them in the burn pile.

Sorry to drag this early post up, but if you refuse to watch it or read about it, how are you able to comment about the series and its goings-on at all?

[Carsandmotorracing]

Originally Posted by one five five

This anti-Randy stuff is funny. Indycar actually got some traction in 2011, the first time any AOWR series moved forward since 2002..... ChampCar collapsed years ago, i think some need to move on.



Sorry to drag this early post up, but if you refuse to watch it or read about it, how are you able to comment about the series and its goings-on at all?

Who knows man.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

This anti-Randy stuff is funny. Indycar actually got some traction in 2011, the first time any AOWR series moved forward since 2002..... ChampCar collapsed years ago, i think some need to move on.

Sorry to drag this early post up, but if you refuse to watch it or read about it, how are you able to comment about the series and its goings-on at all?

What traction? The year ended in catastrophe and many of the races were a farce, plus some races are off the calendar. Tv ratings still stink, attendance still stinks.

I wouldn't worry about me, I'm doing fine and who I know and how I know isn't anyone's business. I'd focus more on your beloved racing series before it sinks beneath the waves.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by one five five

This anti-Randy stuff is funny. Indycar actually got some traction in 2011, the first time any AOWR series moved forward since 2002..... ChampCar collapsed years ago, i think some need to move on.

What traction? IndyCar produced nothing but inertia last season and is now in danger of going backwards, as it loses venues and may be reduced to a 14 race season.

I'm not anti Ropin' Randy per se, I just don't think he's the right man for the job.

[one five five]

Grids were up generally in 2011, how is that a sign of going backwards? We had proper bumping at Indy again for the first time in years, is that not abit of forward motion?

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I wouldn't worry about me, I'm doing fine and who I know and how I know isn't anyone's business. I'd focus more on your beloved racing series before it sinks beneath the waves.

My beloved series? I'm just someone from the other side of the world who enjoys watching motorsport in general, Indycar racing included.... complete hatred towards one facet of motorsport i find puzzling... its all the same game at the end of the day.

...if you hate it so much, why post so regularly on this part of the forum?

[nickyf1]

To be honest, i've had to stop posting in this part of the forum...

CART ain't coming back any time soon, Indycar is what we have, for now. Posting here just seems like a waste of energy sometimes.

[Carsandmotorracing]

Originally Posted by one five five

My beloved series? I'm just someone from the other side of the world who enjoys watching motorsport in general, Indycar racing included.... complete hatred towards one facet of motorsport i find puzzling... its all the same game at the end of the day.

...if you hate it so much, why post so regularly on this part of the forum?

Hey man I agree %100 with you, but mountainstar is just your average crawwagoner. So pay no attention to him.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not anti Ropin' Randy per se, I just don't think he's the right man for the job.

Exactly who is then?

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Exactly who is then?

Probably Penske the Captain, he can turn almost everything around into a profitable popular business.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

Grids were up generally in 2011, how is that a sign of going backwards? We had proper bumping at Indy again for the first time in years, is that not abit of forward motion?

My beloved series? I'm just someone from the other side of the world who enjoys watching motorsport in general, Indycar racing included.... complete hatred towards one facet of motorsport i find puzzling... its all the same game at the end of the day.

...if you hate it so much, why post so regularly on this part of the forum?

I dislike the irl, but love American open wheel racing. I don't like the current regime which is why I push for change for something better. And the results would bear me out seeing how poorly run and managed the series is and how little they get in attendance and tv ratings. If this series pulled the attendance numbers and tv ratings of CART and generated the same sponsor revenue and other figures, and everyone just loved the racing and everything about it, I would not have a leg to stand on. But quite the opposite.

If my opinions challenge your thoughts too much, you can put me on ignore if you choose. Like I said I wouldn't worry about me, but worry about your series.

Grids were up because there were a boat load of old dallarawagons out there and cheap deals were done because the cars were obsolete at the end of the year. Filling up the field with a bunch of unknown pay drivers isn't forward traction.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

Hey man I agree %100 with you, but mountainstar is just your average crawwagoner. So pay no attention to him.

Feel free to, but over the years I have been more right than wrong.

Denial is a human coping mechanism and there are still some in denial about their series and how far it has fallen. So be it. There are obvious glaring issues about the series/sport, then well, OK, if people want to ignore that.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I dislike the irl, but love American open wheel racing. I don't like the current regime which is why I push for change for something better. And the results would bear me out seeing how poorly run and managed the series is and how little they get in attendance and tv ratings. If this series pulled the attendance numbers and tv ratings of CART and generated the same sponsor revenue and other figures, and everyone just loved the racing and everything about it, I would not have a leg to stand on. But quite the opposite.

If my opinions challenge your thoughts too much, you can put me on ignore if you choose. Like I said I wouldn't worry about me, but worry about your series.

Grids were up because there were a boat load of old dallarawagons out there and cheap deals were done because the cars were obsolete at the end of the year. Filling up the field with a bunch of unknown pay drivers isn't forward traction.

Agreed. Also there are plenty of rent-a-riders and decent (compared to many forms of the sport) race purses and other subsidies to keep teams. Plus grids are up compared to, say 2007 because there is only one game in town. Grids (outside of LV and Indy 2011) are actually down, are they not? Champ Car + IRL grids = what 34, 35, 36 cars?

But we're nitpicking here. The series is in real trouble, I think there is at the very least the motivation to fix things and I think at the very least Randy is no longer completely ignorant to the depth and breadth of the hole the series is in.

Chris

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Feel free to, but over the years I have been more right than wrong.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

There are obvious glaring issues about the series/sport, then well, OK, if people want to ignore that.

Who is denying there the are serious issues with Indycar? All people are saying is that the sport is in a better place comparatively to previous years.

The current series isnt a comparison for the mid 90's - nor was Champcar from 2002 - 2007 but you and I both followed that, why is Indycar different?

As for unknown pay drivers, these were at a minimum compared to the latter years of Champcar & IRL so not sure why you make this point in 2011 - when you had solid depth throughout the field. Sebastien Bourdai driving for Dale Coyne is a prime example.

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Plus grids are up compared to, say 2007 because there is only one game in town. Grids (outside of LV and Indy 2011) are actually down, are they not? Champ Car + IRL grids = what 34, 35, 36 cars?

Champcar and IRL both subsidised cars to make their fields. This doesnt exist in Indycar with teams only receiving support from TEAM money (which resulted in reduced purses). This years field compares well alongside the CART series of 2000/2001

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Who is denying there the are serious issues with Indycar? All people are saying is that the sport is in a better place comparatively to previous years.

The current series isnt a comparison for the mid 90's - nor was Champcar from 2002 - 2007 but you and I both followed that, why is Indycar different?

As for unknown pay drivers, these were at a minimum compared to the latter years of Champcar & IRL so not sure why you make this point in 2011 - when you had solid depth throughout the field. Sebastien Bourdai driving for Dale Coyne is a prime example.



Champcar and IRL both subsidised cars to make their fields. This doesnt exist in Indycar with teams only receiving support from TEAM money (which resulted in reduced purses). This years field compares well alongside the CART series of 2000/2001

The field may compare well, but that isn't necessarily a good sign. The series is at a lowpoint for visibility, sponsor interest and perceived ROI. Look at my reasons for the size of the field given above.

Chris

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

The field may compare well, but that isn't necessarily a good sign. The series is at a lowpoint for visibility, sponsor interest and perceived ROI. Look at my reasons for the size of the field given above.

Chris

How are the fields comparing well to previous years a bad sign?

I would argue the series isnt a lowpoint compared to years gone by. Please advise that this isnt a declaration of the strength of Indycar or suggesting that all is fine with the series however by comparison 2011 has been better than years gone by.

I have noted your reasons however they are in my opinion are incorrect and irrelevant. See my post about TEAM money (not new for 2011), reduced purses and very few pay drivers.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

How are the fields comparing well to previous years a bad sign?

I would argue the series isnt a lowpoint compared to years gone by. Please advise that this isnt a declaration of the strength of Indycar or suggesting that all is fine with the series however by comparison 2011 has been better than years gone by.

I have noted your reasons however they are in my opinion are incorrect and irrelevant. See my post about TEAM money (not new for 2011), reduced purses and very few pay drivers.

For a series to be in good shape it needs to have a culture that is full of sponsors and is attractive to them for a multitude of reasons. Right now the only thing that is attractive to sponsors about IndyCar is the Indy 500. Look at the quality and quantity of sponsors (team, as well as series "partners" and associates) that were in Champ Car and the IRL even in 2007 compared to now. The only notable gain I can think of is Verizon while we've lost many more, and still others have a smaller footprint in the series or have renegotiated and have received a much cheaper deal.

My argument is very relevant. Just because the grid sizes are up does not indicate significant forward momentum. IndyCar is well placed in many ways, but amongst many other problems their TV deal is hurting the series quite badly. The Versus seasons have seen the lowest TV ratings in series history and Versus is in a difficult place on cable/satellite digital boxes, so whatever potential homes the series breaks into there aren't enough fans who care enough to find versus on their television, and it is not a channel that people will "trip onto" race broadcasts.

Honestly, I want American Open Wheel to succeed as much as the next guy. I like Randy Bernard, I post in this forum and watch most of the races every year... I am not being a detractor for the sake of being a detractor, I am simply pointing out that the increased grid sizes - primarily due to rent-a-drivers (even if SOME rent-a-drivers like Graham Rahal are guys who deserve to get "full rides" to steal a college football term) - is not a good indicator of series growth. IndyCar is now the only show in town, so naturally as compared to individual Champ Car or IRL grids in 2007, 2006 etc. they will have more entries and more season entries. It also means that IndyCar is still made profitable (by/)for its teams and that is a good sign. It's better than having decreasing grids to go along with many of its other problems.

Bigger grids = not necessarily a GOOD sign. It is most certainly NOT a BAD sign. (And I never suggested it was.) I also never suggested the TEAM fund was new for this year. And I'm not opposed to the TEAM fund, while from a (series/H-G) business standpoint it might not be self-sustaining, the good thing about it is it is keeping teams that could go to Grand-Am or the ALMS or NASCAR (or close up shop) in IndyCar. It does make it easier for teams to stay around. The bigger grids these last few years are not a factor of series growth, simply a factor of there being only one form of top-flight open wheel racing in America.

What IndyCar needs to become if it is to be sustainable economically is a highly visible, highly attractive, brand-friendly form of advertising. Things like NASCAR's Sponsor meetings and CART's exploitation of events that make for attractive outings for sponsors are all important and things that IndyCar needs to incorporate (/better).

I apologize for being flip and not detailed enough in my responses, I thought that what I said spoke for itself, clearly it did not.

Chris

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

For a series to be in good shape it needs to have a culture that is full of sponsors and is attractive to them for a multitude of reasons. Right now the only thing that is attractive to sponsors about IndyCar is the Indy 500. Look at the quality and quantity of sponsors (team, as well as series "partners" and associates) that were in Champ Car and the IRL even in 2007 compared to now. The only notable gain I can think of is Verizon while we've lost many more, and still others have a smaller footprint in the series or have renegotiated and have received a much cheaper deal.

My argument is very relevant. Just because the grid sizes are up does not indicate significant forward momentum. IndyCar is well placed in many ways, but amongst many other problems their TV deal is hurting the series quite badly. The Versus seasons have seen the lowest TV ratings in series history and Versus is in a difficult place on cable/satellite digital boxes, so whatever potential homes the series breaks into there aren't enough fans who care enough to find versus on their television, and it is not a channel that people will "trip onto" race broadcasts.

Honestly, I want American Open Wheel to succeed as much as the next guy. I like Randy Bernard, I post in this forum and watch most of the races every year... I am not being a detractor for the sake of being a detractor, I am simply pointing out that the increased grid sizes - primarily due to rent-a-drivers (even if SOME rent-a-drivers like Graham Rahal are guys who deserve to get "full rides" to steal a college football term) - is not a good indicator of series growth. IndyCar is now the only show in town, so naturally as compared to individual Champ Car or IRL grids in 2007, 2006 etc. they will have more entries and more season entries. It also means that IndyCar is still made profitable (by/)for its teams and that is a good sign. It's better than having decreasing grids to go along with many of its other problems.

Bigger grids = not necessarily a GOOD sign. It is most certainly NOT a BAD sign. (And I never suggested it was.) I also never suggested the TEAM fund was new for this year. And I'm not opposed to the TEAM fund, while from a (series/H-G) business standpoint it might not be self-sustaining, the good thing about it is it is keeping teams that could go to Grand-Am or the ALMS or NASCAR (or close up shop) in IndyCar. It does make it easier for teams to stay around. The bigger grids these last few years are not a factor of series growth, simply a factor of there being only one form of top-flight open wheel racing in America.

What IndyCar needs to become if it is to be sustainable economically is a highly visible, highly attractive, brand-friendly form of advertising. Things like NASCAR's Sponsor meetings and CART's exploitation of events that make for attractive outings for sponsors are all important and things that IndyCar needs to incorporate (/better).

I apologize for being flip and not detailed enough in my responses, I thought that what I said spoke for itself, clearly it did not.

Chris

That's been the IRL's problem from the outset, it's never attracted the big sponsors, like CART did, either for the teams or for race promotion. Even when Ganassi and Penske jumped ship the big sponsors gradually left CART and moved to NASCAR.

With Ganassi and Penske moving to the IRL, Tony George failed to attract the the big sponsors. Personally, I think the big sponsors saw CART as a sinking ship and the IRL as too much of a Mickey Mouse opperation, that never attracted the big money in the first place and the best place for them to go to was NASCAR.

As for TV coverage, they did themselves no favours by scrapping the live feed from the IndyCar website. There are a lot of fans outside the US and this just made it that much harder for them to watch; a very bad PR move.

[Purist]

That decision was pushed on them by Versus not wanting the streams to detract from their TV ratings.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

That decision was pushed on them by Versus not wanting the streams to detract from their TV ratings.

Fairenough but did it improve their ratings?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's been the IRL's problem from the outset, it's never attracted the big sponsors, like CART did, either for the teams or for race promotion. Even when Ganassi and Penske jumped ship the big sponsors gradually left CART and moved to NASCAR.

With Ganassi and Penske moving to the IRL, Tony George failed to attract the the big sponsors. Personally, I think the big sponsors saw CART as a sinking ship and the IRL as too much of a Mickey Mouse opperation, that never attracted the big money in the first place and the best place for them to go to was NASCAR.

As for TV coverage, they did themselves no favours by scrapping the live feed from the IndyCar website. There are a lot of fans outside the US and this just made it that much harder for them to watch; a very bad PR move.

Why the heck would a major Fortune 500 company want to sponsor a series with smaller television ratings than a Shamwow infomercial at 7:00 am in the morning? Not like the circuit attendance is much better either, Im honestly not sure why companies like IZOD and Verizon are heavily invested in this series. Government Motors would spend money on an SCCA world challenge program right now with 0.1 ratings on Versus (weeks after the race is actually run) so I can easily see why they are entrenched in Indycar now.

Im not the biggest NASCAR fan out there, but if I were a major, Fortune 100/500/1000 CEO for a non automotive/technology (then I would also probably spend my money on sports car racing) company with so much money to spend on sponsorship I really dont see the point of sponsoring a US series other than NASCAR.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

but if I were a major, Fortune 100/500/1000 CEO for a non automotive/technology (then I would also probably spend my money on sports car racing) company with so much money to spend on sponsorship I really dont see the point of sponsoring a US series other than NASCAR.

We're in 100% agreement.

Chris

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's been the IRL's problem from the outset, it's never attracted the big sponsors, like CART did, either for the teams or for race promotion. Even when Ganassi and Penske jumped ship the big sponsors gradually left CART and moved to NASCAR.

With Ganassi and Penske moving to the IRL, Tony George failed to attract the the big sponsors. Personally, I think the big sponsors saw CART as a sinking ship and the IRL as too much of a Mickey Mouse opperation, that never attracted the big money in the first place and the best place for them to go to was NASCAR.

As for TV coverage, they did themselves no favours by scrapping the live feed from the IndyCar website. There are a lot of fans outside the US and this just made it that much harder for them to watch; a very bad PR move.

One of the things I have seen first hand in the business is professionalism and presentation go a long way towards success.

The irl since it's beginning has been a big cesspool of cronyism and nepotism, which from the inner walls of indianapolis looks all fine and usual, but to the outside world looks amateurish and clownish. Just look at race control and how amateur hour that is and all the horrific decisions they made this year, so bad drivers are willing to risk being fined and bringing the sport into disrepute by giving the finger at them or openly blasting them in public.

People in indy don't get it, but almost all corporate sponsors don't want to be associated with such a poorly run series.

Nascar IS professional motorsport in the USA today. And they got there via professionalism and presentation. 20 years ago it was still a wink and a nod, southern good ole boy type management and they changed all that to take the sport to a dominate national level.

[fasteric]

Indy Car racing will be back as a major series if and when major and traditional sponsors such as Budwieser, Miller Lite, Valvoline,etc return as primary sponsors with national marketeting campaigns..these companies know motorsports and practical invented modern sponsorships (along with tobacco cos.) and do not see a big enough ROI in IndyCar at this time.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by fasteric

Indy Car racing will be back as a major series if and when major and traditional sponsors such as Budwieser, Miller Lite, Valvoline,etc return as primary sponsors with national marketeting campaigns..these companies know motorsports and practical invented modern sponsorships (along with tobacco cos.) and do not see a big enough ROI in IndyCar at this time.

With the state IndyCar is in at the moment, I fear that's a long way off and Budweiser, Valvoline etc. will be happy to remain at NASCAR for the foreseeable future.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

With the state IndyCar is in at the moment, I fear that's a long way off and Budweiser, Valvoline etc. will be happy to remain at NASCAR for the foreseeable future.

Yeah, they need a reason to be in IndyCar. IndyCar isn't a particularly attractive brand and calling it a shadow of CART's past success is an insult to the word shadow.

Chris