Official Round 18 - Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Page 3

**Adam43** · 12 Nov 2011, 14:08 (Ref:2984855)

Except Button has the 'tache.

**Born Racer** · 12 Nov 2011, 14:18 (Ref:2984857)

I just think who cares about championships when we have Grands Prix? Such an enticing battle in prospect up at the front there.

The unusual circuit is even growing on me! (Although that win on the Playstation game helped my appreciation of it).

JeremySmith · 12 Nov 2011, 14:44 (Ref:2984871)

Great qualifying session, exciting towards the end I thought...

JeremySmith · 12 Nov 2011, 18:52 (Ref:2984977)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I just think who cares about championships when we have Grands Prix? Such an enticing battle in prospect up at the front there.

The unusual circuit is even growing on me! (Although that win on the Playstation game helped my appreciation of it).

No one seems to like Abu Dhabi, I admit it's not the best circuit for racing but the setting is stunning..

stripedcat · 12 Nov 2011, 18:55 (Ref:2984980)

Another pole for Vettel and his 'soft drinks' company' car!

It does look like it is going to be another walkover for the young German. Still, it was an exciting qualifying session, I thought that Jenson could have taken his first McLaren pole, it wasn't to be!

JeremySmith · 12 Nov 2011, 19:12 (Ref:2984985)

I think Lewis will win this race...

JamesH · 12 Nov 2011, 19:34 (Ref:2984993)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Yes. Downforce as a whole is a ludicrous concept that is irrelevant to cars.

I disagree. Downforce and drag are inextricably linked - and drag is VERY important to road cars.

**chunterer** · 12 Nov 2011, 19:59 (Ref:2985005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesH

I disagree. Downforce and drag are inextricably linked - and drag is VERY important to road cars.

Indeed, fuel economy for a start!

Ironically, that's something the McLaren is somtimes prettyt marginal on?

Marbot · 12 Nov 2011, 20:10 (Ref:2985010)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I think Lewis will win this race...

You said that last time.

But anyone except Vettel would do nicely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesH

I disagree. Downforce and drag are inextricably linked - and drag is VERY important to road cars.

Only in so far as it's a bad thing. F1 cars balance downforce against drag. That's why we see that the Red Bull cars are never anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to top speed. Play to your strengths.

JeremySmith · 12 Nov 2011, 20:22 (Ref:2985016)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

You said that last time.

But anyone except Vettel would do nicely.

Only in so far as it's a bad thing. F1 cars balance downforce against drag. That's why we see that the Red Bull cars are never anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to top speed. Play to your strengths.

Okay well I am saying it again, I am willing it to happen! As I like most am bored with Sebastian running off into the distance..

White flag man · 12 Nov 2011, 21:40 (Ref:2985046)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Okay well I am saying it again, I am willing it to happen! As I like most am bored with Sebastian running off into the distance..

But are you bored of LH crashing into people. If not, make sure you watch tomorrow.

JeremySmith · 12 Nov 2011, 21:42 (Ref:2985047)

Quote:

Originally Posted by White flag man

But are you bored of LH crashing into people. If not, make sure you watch tomorrow.

Just stop it...

White flag man · 12 Nov 2011, 21:47 (Ref:2985049)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Just stop it...

Said Massa...

MarkG · 12 Nov 2011, 22:39 (Ref:2985068)

Great qualifying today. I have aired my views about being underwhelmed with F1 racing because of downforce, but qualifying is always good, whatever the circuit really, and today was excellent.
Shame they can't then take off all the downforce after qualifying and then have some exciting racing

TrapezeArtist · 12 Nov 2011, 23:07 (Ref:2985086)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesH

I disagree. Downforce and drag are inextricably linked - and drag is VERY important to road cars.

No they're not. You can't have downforce without drag, but you can have drag without downforce. And come to think of it, you can't have movement without drag.

If we took away the downforce from a current F1 car but left it otherwise the same, it would have an incredible top speed. But the top speed on any given circuit would be similar to current (intuitive comment - I haven't calculated it) because the cars would be accelerating onto each straight from much lower speeds. And they would have to start braking much much earlier.

A spinning car would decelerate at roughly the same rate as a current car (because a current car doesn't have downforce in any direction except forwards) but would be attempting to take a corner at a much lower speed. Therefore run-offs could be much smaller.

Marbot · 13 Nov 2011, 02:00 (Ref:2985142)

The aerodynamic designer has two primary concerns: the creation of downforce, to help push the car's tyres onto the track and improve cornering forces; and minimising the drag that gets caused by turbulence and acts to slow the car down.

Get those two things right and you're in business, but you'll also need to factor in power level and fuel level requirements. One of which may be fixed, as it is, more or less, with the engine.

However, as is being discussed in another thread, carrying a very limited fixed amount of fuel changes the whole thing.

Road cars rarely travel at speeds where aero efficiency really matters that much (what's your average speed on your trip computer ?).

You'll generally need around eight times more power to go twice as fast if all other parameters remain the same. So your average 70 bhp family hatchback can achieve around 100 mph, but you'll need about 550 bhp or so to reach 200 mph. That's drag for you!

News just in: FIA to extend DRS zone, "amid fears that overtaking will be too hard".

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96161

willb · 13 Nov 2011, 04:55 (Ref:2985291)

Quote:

Originally Posted by White flag man

But are you bored of LH crashing into people. If not, make sure you watch tomorrow.

Looks like Lewis is aiming for Vettel instead of Massa this time
http://en.espnf1.com/abudhabi/motors...ory/64133.html

Purist · 13 Nov 2011, 05:20 (Ref:2985311)

TA, unless your drag-inducing surfaces are perfectly vertical, they will produce either lift or downforce, but this can also change with the pitch-up or pitch-down of the vehicle. Also, don't count on the cars only producing downforce when going forward. There are minimum requirements for how fast a car must be able to go at 90 and 180 degrees yaw before it can lift off.

Also, an aero-neutral vehicle would be unable to self-damp any natural reaction to a disturbance. If cars start fish-tailing and wiping out in the middle of straightaways because of this, the FIA might require huge run-off zones on either side of straightaways.

Without downforce, the cars would have to be completely redesigned because of the difference in loadings on every part of the car. Without the downforce, the current cars would be too stiff, and thus, so jittery as to be literally undriveable. They would simply react too violently to any disturbance for a human to possibly be able to keep the machine in line for very long.

With the newer breed of tracks, your plan won't work to shorten run-offs at corners either. Run-off might be made somewhat smaller at some fast corners. However, run-off size is determined by the terminal velocity achieved at the end of the straight. With minimal downforce, the long straights on newer tracks will be faster, because many of these straights are preceded by slow corners now, where it's mechanical grip that matter more anyway. Therefore, you'd be required to make the run-offs at those hairpins larger, NOT smaller. Also, if the approach to a fast corner is long enough for the terminal velocity on the straight before it to be higher than with the downforce, then that fast corner will be required to have more run-off as well.

You see, TrapezeArtist, it's NOT so simple a problem to solve.

fourWheelDrift · 13 Nov 2011, 12:45 (Ref:2985527)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

Road cars rarely travel at speeds where aero efficiency really matters that much (what's your average speed on your trip computer ?).

I hate to argue but this is simply not so. Once you get over about 30mph aerodynamics dominates your cars fuel economy. Remember to deal with the aero drag at 60mph requires 8 times the power you need at 30, at 90 that becomes 27 times the power. Even on a road car efficiency at a steady speed is all about aero although of course acceleration is all about power to weight ratio but aerodynamics are massively important to road cars.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 13 Nov 2011, 13:04 (Ref:2985533)

Vettel off with a puncture!

**Born Racer** · 13 Nov 2011, 13:06 (Ref:2985534)

Now let's see Vettel do some overtaking.

**Bononi** · 13 Nov 2011, 13:07 (Ref:2985535)

Vettel is out, game over to him.

**Born Racer** · 13 Nov 2011, 13:07 (Ref:2985536)

Damn. I really wanted to witness a Vettel charge.

FastDB2s · 13 Nov 2011, 13:30 (Ref:2985545)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Vettel is out, game over to him.

Wonderful, isn't it !

**Born Racer** · 13 Nov 2011, 15:33 (Ref:2985588)

Red Bull being sensitive then blocking the camera.

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