Max vs Lewis - Handbags at dawn

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Yes. If Hamilton had turned in more at Interlagos the accident would have been predominantly caused by Verstappen.

At Silverstone Verstappen could have not tightened the steering angle further like he did.

I agree. However in my original post an incident would lead to a DNF to one of the drivers with assumption that both could have done something different to avoid said incident, as was the case at Silverstone.

Interlagos is a different situation with a different outcome and - with different scales of blame which is why I didn't mention it.

[crmalcolm]

For those who are interested in a longer read on the development of Max:

Max Verstappen: Formula 1's 'bull fighter' & the family that shaped him

'Throughout Verstappen's F1 career, that will to win has been very clear, partly from his manner out of the car, his straightforwardness, his absolute singularity of purpose. But also from the way he drives.

Verstappen takes aggression to the extreme, something that has become one of the defining aspects of his battle with Hamilton this year. He just will not back down in a wheel-to-wheel fight, even when other drivers would, because racing ethics say they should.

If he's on the inside, he will push the other driver wide; if he's on the outside, he will turn in on them and compete, regardless of whether standard practice would dictate they have won the corner, and he should really concede. That's how he races.'

[bella]

obligatory context to that article: it's a shame nobody's willing to talk about what it was really like racing against the verstappens, both for max and for the other drivers and their families.

THAT'S why he's used to racing as wildly without facing any consequences.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bella

obligatory context to that article: it's a shame nobody's willing to talk about what it was really like racing against the verstappens, both for max and for the other drivers and their families.

THAT'S why he's used to racing as wildly without facing any consequences.

There are a couple of references to seeing him race (one from Horner even):

'Jos says he "doesn't know" where Max developed that style. "He did it in go-karts," he says, "so I don't see anything different. When he sees the gap, when he has that feeling he can overtake, he will go for it."

But Van Amersfoort says: "Jos was driving like that, too. That comes from Jos. We had so many visits to the stewards in the F3 year and it was always the same. A Verstappen can't lose. They can't bear the fact that they have lost."

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner, who raced against Verstappen's mother in karting, agrees: "That came from his dad. His mum was a smart racer. He's got the aggression of his dad and the racing head of his mum."'

But yes - an honest opinion from someone else inside a helmet racing a Verstappen would be enlightening.

[bella]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner, who raced against Verstappen's mother in karting, agrees: "That came from his dad. His mum was a smart racer. He's got the aggression of his dad and the racing head of his mum."'[/I]

the only thing horner's said that isn't nonsense. he gets his speed from his mum, and his dad gaslighted him into thinking that aggression is the way forward. that's max' grandad's (and jos' dad's) background.

imagine how much more... elegant a racer he'd have been if his mum had raised him at the kart track instead of his dad.

[Anyopenroad]

Red Bull’s PR machine is earning its money. There’s a similar article in today’s Times, though the impression that gives is that Max is the result of an abusive upbringing at the hands of a very unpleasant father.

[chillibowl]

Didnt see the whole press conference but a well measured answer from Max i thought.

https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/st...RK_aYKXpA&s=19

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Because whilst the stakes go up the effect on the Championship is the same. A 25 point gain at Silverstone due to a mistake is ultimately the same as a 25 point gain at Abu Dhabi due to a mistake. The only difference is that there is no basis for a replying action.

A cynical red card foul in a football match wouldn't see the offending player punished more because it happened during the 90th minute; or alternatively in a World Cup final instead of the group stages.

'A cynical red card foul'

your phrasing (to me at least) infers that penalties at different points are view differently.

again i dont disagree that they should be treated differently. i like the Grand Prix format and while the lines have changed over the years, i like that every event is somewhat treated as a separate event. a clean sheet if you will. a chance to start fresh.

but you have to admit that the reality is otherwise. an infraction at one point of the season is rarely treated the same as an infraction at a different point in the season.

is that just inconsistency on the part of the stewards or the reality that between those two points in time other developments affect how severely a repeated infraction is dealt with...a drivers driving history, a teams antics, number of warnings issued, cumulative damage done, and also the stage of the season.

anyways, i hope it doesn't come down to the refs. im not tuning in to watch the refs. rarely do we ever get to know their full discourse and seldom ever agree with them.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by bella

the only thing horner's said that isn't nonsense. he gets his speed from his mum, and his dad gaslighted him into thinking that aggression is the way forward. that's max' grandad's (and jos' dad's) background.


.

His father certainly has a chequered career outside of racing

[ascarracinguk]

Such a well written article

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/a-...n/6864023/amp/

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Such a well written article

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/a-...n/6864023/amp/

it was. thanks for the share.

and a interesting point about a penalty this year not only risks a penalty this year but the licence points and potential race ban would affect his 2022 campaign and chances to win next year's title.

so a poorly made move this weekend could cost him two drivers titles.

i have to be honest though...at this stage in the game, can either driver afford to start trying out a new approach or is in both drivers best interest to just keep doing what has, successfully i would add, brought them to this moment?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

it was. thanks for the share.

and a interesting point about a penalty this year not only risks a penalty this year but the licence points and potential race ban would affect his 2022 campaign and chances to win next year's title.

so a poorly made move this weekend could cost him two drivers titles.

i have to be honest though...at this stage in the game, can either driver afford to start trying out a new approach or is in both drivers best interest to just keep doing what has, successfully i would add, brought them to this moment?

Nope, they can’t. They have to live in the now….neither know how competitive they will be next year so have to seize this opportunity

[bella]

to be honest i don't think lewis needs to. aside from the silverstone situation, he can look at his behaviour and think "yeah, i tried my best and i didn't do anything stupid". and even silverstone i'm inclined to give him a pass for because it's the same crap max has been getting away with for years.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bella

to be honest i don't think lewis needs to. aside from the silverstone situation, he can look at his behaviour and think "yeah, i tried my best and i didn't do anything stupid". and even silverstone i'm inclined to give him a pass for because it's the same crap max has been getting away with for years.

I think Karuns segment on sky today, looking at all 6 clashes between them at Silverstone, Imola, Monza, Spain, Jeddah and Brazil.

In 5 out of the 6 incidents, Lewis has been on the outside, Max has thrown it in, braked late and understeered into hamilton, forcing Lewis to take avoiding action….

In the final incident it was Max on the outside and turns in expecting Lewis to take avoiding action….

Basically Max is utterly uncompromising, his style relies on the other driver having more to lose….it may work this year, he may win the championship but going forward I can’t see him getting away with it for another 10-15 years against other drivers that have less to lose than him.

[Skam85]

It's a good thing Max didn't inherit his father's on track speed, otherwise he'd be tootling around in a Haas, his 5th team in F1 of which he had driven for and been fired from previously.

[Knowlesy]

He could do with the straight-line speed of his dad's Orange Arrows this weekend tbf.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Didnt see the whole press conference but a well measured answer from Max i thought.

https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/st...RK_aYKXpA&s=19

Just a shame that elsewhere, the public comments are less measured:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59593834
Verstappen said: "It seems other drivers do the same things and only I get a penalty.

"The only thing I ask is that it's fair for everyone. That's not the case."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59590832
Horner says a world title for the Dutch driver would be Red Bull's "biggest" achievement, despite the team guiding Sebastian Vettel to become the youngest world champion in history aged 23 in 2010, the first of his four titles with the team.

He says Verstappen has helped the team to a position that is "beyond anything we could have hoped for coming into this season".

"Lewis and Mercedes have had the better car since the summer break arguably, but Max has driven out of his skin - the wins in Austin and Mexico standing out," Horner added.

[chillibowl]

Yeah saw those comments. Some sort of local slant/lost in translation type misquote?

Maybe thats being too naive.

As to Max' influence...RB have ostensibly taken up an engine program, partially i would say, because they feel in Max they have a driver who can deliever on track and one who may do so for the next decade.

Even their blind support of Max, through this lens, can be justified?

A Privateer team becoming an engine manu...kinda unprecedented and something i didnt think we would see in the manu/modern era?

[Kingair]

Old bull versus young bull.

I think the old bull will out psych, out race the young bull.

The old bull may take the young bull out at the first corner, and win the title on a count back.

Interesting race ahead.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Kingair

Old bull versus young bull.

I think the old bull will out psych, out race the young bull.

The old bull may take the young bull out at the first corner, and win the title on a count back.

Interesting race ahead.

I'm confused as to who the bulls are in this one. If Lewis (old) takes out Max (young) then Max wins. Max has more race wins, so if both no-score then Max takes the title.

Although the race directors notes remind the drivers than points can be removed as part of a penalty.

[bella]

i don’t think the old bull has anything to gain from taking the young bull out at the first corner. hang him out to dry and push him into a ferrari or alpha tauri, sure. that’s just racing… or something.

[BTCC frog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swxpX6yZS_k
An excellent video here from Karun Chandhok.

[crmalcolm]

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/co...m_source=share


How to simultaneously fail to show respect for your opponent and undermine your own engineers in the same sentence....

Max Verstappen over Lewis Hamilton: ’Als ik in zijn auto had gezeten, was seizoen allang beslist’

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Max Verstappen over Lewis Hamilton: ’Als ik in zijn auto had gezeten, was seizoen allang beslist’

"If I had been in his car, the season would have been decided long ago"

[Knowlesy]

Assuming Lewis would be in the Red Bull in this fantasy scenario, I actually agree with Max.