BMW staying in F1 - but where?

[TeddyG]

Originally posted by Red

(I read it only 5 times, isn't that an achievement?)

See just keep reading. You'll get it eventually.

Originally posted by Red
(Sheese, poor Jacques, he had faith in Honda, only to find out that when they start to deliver they'll swithc teams )

Oh silly me I was under the impression that Jacques would be forced into retirement after this season

No Red but if BAR is still not performing by the time Honda get their act together then they do not deserve a top engine. You see I don't like to think only in ways that I would like things to happen but how things could possibly turn out as they seem to be more realistic.


But if I adopt your style of thought. Jacques will of course have left BAR and won a couple championships with Renault by this time....and if not this he will of course travel with Honda over to Williams.

[Red]

John, looking forward to that!

Originally posted by TeddyG
To sum up - Most people believe BMW will stay with Williams, as there isn't exactly anyplace better to go at the moment. I also believe this FOR NOW.

No Teddy. Most people believe that BMW will go as both chassis and engine makers. And even if BMW will not produce the best engine might be something likely, they will definitely not be eclipsed. They will produce one of the best 2 or 3 (hopefully more) engines on grid. And top teams do not change engines just because in one season another engine is 10bhp more powerful than it's current engine. Sorry, I just re-read your post once more and still that's all what I get. Eventually.

[TeddyG]

Originally posted by Red

No Teddy. Most people believe that BMW will go as both chassis and engine makers.

:confused::confused:
Ummm where exactly did you get that idea from??? As far as this thread goes the possiblity of BMW forming their own team has only been mentioned 4 times and 3 out of those four people belive that it would be a HUGE mistake! The other post seems to be neutral either way. However it is clear that the MAJORITY of people believe that BMW would only be wasting more time in trying to put a decent car together by themselves.

Nice try though!

Originally posted by Red

And top teams do not change engines just because in one season another engine is 10bhp more powerful than it's current engine.

Tut, tut, tut.
You haven't been reading again Red
I clearly said that it would take a few years of BMW being a second rate engine to Honda. Thus giving enough time for frustration to build between both Williams and Honda camps.

Go on try again, you've almost got it

[Red]

Jeez Teddy. Is not that difficult. We are talking about what team BMW would chose, not what engine would Williams like to have. It is NOT the other way around. BMW are not pleased with Williams. Right now. Not Williams might not be pleased with BMW. In "a few years". Since McLaren, Ferrari, Toyota, Jaguar and Renault are not available, that leaves BAR, Sauber, Jordan and Minardi. And if they pick one of those, wanna bet that they instantly would rebadge it as BMW? Not BAR-BMW? Either start a team from scratch or buy an existing team, that means BMW goes alone.

[TeddyG]

Nevertheless Red, even if that's what you assume people are thinking, the idea of BMW going out "on their own" ,as you put it, is considered a HUGE mistake by most of the people in this thread.

What I was talking about was a different scenario which might play out in the future (i.e. if BMW's performance drops off) Which has everything to do with who BMW might end up supplying down the road.

I fail to see what point you are making here? I never said I was talking about right now. Obviously BMW holds the cards as they are the ones performing. I was only suggesting that this may not always be the case.

[Red]

Mistake or not, the idea is not to supply engines to a team just for the sake of it. It's either Williams or none. And what you put up here is a different scenario, I agree, but not if BMW's performance drops off. You were saying that (and I quote) "it is inevitable that BMW will evenutually fall...etc".

[TeddyG]

Sorry been away for a while but I need just one more post here;

Originally posted by Red
but not if BMW's performance drops off. You were saying that (and I quote) "it is inevitable that BMW will evenutually fall...etc".

(sighhhhh)
Ok Red sure if you want to belive that BMW will always produce F1's best engine go right ahead
I suspect you'll be singing a different tune in 2-3 years time though. (perhaps even less!)
[saving this thread for future purposes]

[TeddyG]

and before you go off on the tangent that I expect...the only thing that I said was inevitable was the fact that BMW would eventually fall from it's #1 position...then I said IF Honda were to be the ones who overtake them then this is a possible way that things could play out...ie. Williams-Honda, and a BAR-BMW swap. Of course not definite but I was only tying to add a different angle to the question of where BMW might end up.

[JohnSSC]

Go off on a tangent? Please, allow me!

Using the "Eventual Failure Scenario" I suppose that Ferrari should begin to consider sourcing a new engine as they will "fail" sooner or later. I can see the thread now: "Should Ferrari stick with Ferrari or get a customer Mercedes Benz engine?"

Red, please feel free to go off on your tangent now!

[Red]

Mercedes to Ferrari? Sacriledge. It’ll be Ferrari-Honda, BAR-Mercedes, McLaren-BMW, Williams-Maserati, Jordan-Ferrari and Sauber-Mercedes

Teddyg, starting from a false premise and developing a (kinda) coherent scenario is fun both from the writer and reader's point of view. But that technique has a name, it is science fiction. This is Formula 1 Teddy, and fiction has no place in it. Listen to me, I said it is fun to elaborate such things, but actually believing them is childish. Add how many different angles you want, add if’s and when’s till blue in your face, but do not expect anyone to take you seriously, or if you do, don’t be surprised to notice that this is not the case and stop questioning intellectual abilities of whoever does not agree with you.

I'll try to put it simple:

Data at hand. Indubitable facts. That's what every businessman use, and they do base their predictions on them. FACT AT HAND is that BMW does produce the most powerful engine on grid. When you said that "inevitably BMW will go down the drain", how exactly do you argument your assumption? Formula 1 goes in cycles? Is that all? Jeeeeeeeeeez. Yeah, I know, Mercedes had 2 great years and they’re not the best anymore. Renault had 2 great seasons before them, but how do you explain that Ferrari had 3 great years (1999 was only good) and still no signs of "inevitably falling" in the foreseeable future?

So, after trying to intelligently re-read what you have written, I understand that:
tangent #1: BMW make great engine so the intelligent conclusion will be: they will fall in 2-3 years, maybe less
tangent #2: Honda "have been promising all these years" to produce a good engine and that means in 2004 they'll surpass BMW and that's also sure fact.
tangent #3: by that time, they will not have their own team and will beg Williams to accept their free engines, same team that BMW threatens to dump.

Did I miss something?

Teddy, data at hand is:

"BMW has been building the best engines for several seasons now, but is always slowed down by Williams cars."

"the world championship will remain a dream if partnership with Williams continues"

Those were Berger's statements

"So what we are talking about is not if, but how, to continue" - Mario Theissen.

How did you figure it out that Williams will dump BMW after their current contract, and how do you believe that BMW would want to fulfill their dream with BAR is a mystery to me.

[TeddyG]

Jessums I never said I actually believed any of what I was saying was really going to come true (well except that BMW will inevitably fall from #1)..the rest was purely speculation of where BMW may end up in the future if certain things happen...that's all.

I was only trying to bring in a different angle to answer the question proposed. I swear I'll never do it again honest

The only reason I defended my side so furiously is that certain people decide to laugh or belittle my points which insults my intelligence so naturally I hit back. You have to admit Red that you didn't enter into this thread to dicuss the topic but only to belittle me (I think John can fight his own battles), perhaps it was because of our disagreement in that other thread?
Now that to me is truely childish.

But fear not because I now know that speculation is not allowed here anymore, it is intolerable and we must now only discuss pure facts. Hmmmm I think this forum is going to get pretty boring around here if we all adopt that attitude. Since the majority of what we talk about is purely speculation based on little if any fact at all. Indeed I think as fans all we really can do is speculate on how things could potentially turn out. And I don't think my speculation here is so "out-there" that it classifies me as insane as some responses suggest.

Anyways this thread is going nowhere and seems to only be a dialogue between Red and I so it's not really fair to the others to keep bringing it up the list. Let's just call it a day on this one okay?