"Mika the worst world champion ever"

[Gt_R]

Quote K-B: "Basically, according to many here - if anyone but Michael wins, they had a superior car...If Michael wins his car was little better than a Minardi but his supreme powers forced it to victory."

Well..that is your own words..

In 1999, the car in itself is a faster, if not better, car than the Ferrari. Ferrari may win the WCC, but honestly, ask any magazine writers or team owners and they'd recognise that the Mclaren is a better car.

However, the performance gap of the 2 cars are closer than the previous few years (Williams vs Ferrari 96/97, Mclaren vs Ferrari 98), and while Ferrari lags in outright performance, they hold the trumph card in reliability and drivability.

And things are at the closest in 2000 between a MS-driven car vs a Newey designed machine. As F1-Racing analysed that year, the Mclaren still edges the Ferrari slightly in performance/car behavior, and Ferrari still hold the Reliabilty advantage. Hence overall, general consensus is that the 2 teams had equal machinery.

Nobody said that Michael wins with cars barely better than a Minardi. The Ferrari is a bloody good car, but what we are saying is in comparison to it's direct competitor's car, which honestly prior to 2000, isn't on par with the excellent machineries produced under Newey's direction.

Try denying that in 96/97/98, the Ferrari is not on par with the Williams 96/97 / Mclaren 98...?

[davemorganfan]

Didn't rate him at all. No quicker than Herbert in the same car.

[garcon]

Blah blah wibble.

Amazing what the comments of some blind Brit-supporting numbskull on Ceefax can generate isn't it?

Was Mika the worst WDC ever? Nah. Not by a long way. He deservedly won two WDCs which automatically puts him in the top league - obviously not quite on a par with the Sennas, Schumachers and Prosts of this world, but a significant step ahead of the one time WDC winners of the last 25 years or so.

Am I surprised that someone whould write to Ceefax defending "Wonderbutt" (that's gonna stick, and I like the guy! ) ? Nah, for every Brit who follows F1 closely and appreciates the qualities of the whole grid, there's another half a dozen who will blindly support the Brit and just as blindly slag the rest.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by davemorganfan
Didn't rate him at all. No quicker than Herbert in the same car.

Not quite true. Mika was outqualified by Herbert more often but outraced him more times.

However, comparing teammates is a good way IMO to see where Mika fits in the scheme of things.

- Using Herbert as a barometer, he is a fair way behind MS.

- Using Brundle as a barometer, he is slightly better than Barrichello.

- Using Coulthard as a barometer, he is about level with Damon Hill and using Hill, he is slightly better than JV.

- and he did outqualify Senna in his first run in the McLaren.

All in all, says he is pretty good racer, I would think.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by deeks6
- and he did outqualify Senna in his first run in the McLaren.

Hence Herbert is better than Senna :confused:

[Kicking-back]

I hope this thread will wither and die because it annoys me every time I log on here seeing that title "Mike the worst world champion ever".

He isn't, he isn't, he isn't!

[deeks6]

Only at qualifying!
Ayrton could just blouse him in a race, I reckon...

[BootsOntheSide]

I thought this one would create some debate.

deeks' analysis is interesting, and probably reflects how I would see him. He made the best use of his opportunities once McLaren made the best car, but didn't achieve as much in cars which weren't qutie on the ultiate pace. All the same, he stuck at it for several years in mediocre cars, occaisonally shining once he tempered the more wild instincts of his early years. On the downside, maybe he needed the situation to be right - his form in 2001 was mediocre at best, and he was right to quit at that point.

[BoatOwner]

Originally posted by Mr V
Maybe, but then, Michael was ahead of Eddie, and Eddie got to within 2 points at the end of the season.

If Ferrari had supported both drivers equally, Eddie would have won for not having to play second fiddle.

Michael would have won it had he not broken his leg.

Both ferrari drivers could have won it.

lots of ifs and a couple of woulds that turn into a could.

[strider]

I can't really believe some of the rubbish in this thread...

Johnny Herbert was and is a good driver, but the McLaren Mika was like a much improved Mark 2 version.

He did deserve both titles and, which doesn't seem to count these days, was a hard but fair racer, who didn't waste time slagging off his rivals. After that pass at Spa he went straight to Schumi and told him he thought his manoeuvre on the previous lap had been out of order, as indeed it was.

He may not have been great at PR, but at least he was genuine and sporting (sorry, forgot, those are irrelevant qualities...).

[garcon]

Not irrelevant qualities at all, foxy. (Welcome to the forum by the way ). I think the vast majority of F1 fans still value such qualities in a driver. And I think it's for those reasons - aswell as his outright ability - that Mika was always well respected by his fellow drivers.

[Rafael]

Hakkinen was a nice champion, but he doesn't know how to use the words to criticize the other drivers. And it's too easy to say anything staying out of the track.

[Knowlesy]

It is a shame he never spoke his mind when he was driving I guess. Then again, nobody likes a driver spouting his mouth off, so maybe we should be glad.

[avsfan733]

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html

thought i'd post that because its relevant to some extent

[Kicking-back]

I think Kimi, like Mika will be a career McLaren driver - now he's there he won't move anywhere else.

[krt917]

Originally posted by deeks6
Not quite true. Mika was outqualified by Herbert more often but outraced him more times.

However, comparing teammates is a good way IMO to see where Mika fits in the scheme of things.

- Using Herbert as a barometer, he is a fair way behind MS.

- Using Brundle as a barometer, he is slightly better than Barrichello.

- Using Coulthard as a barometer, he is about level with Damon Hill and using Hill, he is slightly better than JV.

- and he did outqualify Senna in his first run in the McLaren.

All in all, says he is pretty good racer, I would think.

Interesting deeks, but I've never been entirely convinced with this line of argument because:
-Drivers develop and get better over time, making long-term qualifying comparisons difficult.
-Different teams and different cars suit different drivers. An example would be the mid-'90 Benettons which only Schuey could really drive consistantly as he led its development.
-Some people are better qualifiers than racers and vice versa.

Having said all that, I don't think your conclusion is too far off this time!

I think that we're all agreed that Mika isn't the worst World Champion ever. In fact, to look for the 'worst' amongst a group of guys who reached the pinnacle of their sport seems a bit on the harsh side to me!

[Dutch chap]

He may not have been great at PR, but at least he was genuine and sporting (sorry, forgot, those are irrelevant qualities...).


And as long as you think that this is relevant I think you have the right attitude...

[Dutch chap]

sorry, I was trying to quote Foxy Mole here

[Dutch chap]

I'm not good at this quoting thing BTW. How do you get the name of the one you're quoting in the frame?

[Kicking-back]

click the little quote button on the actual post you want to quote.

[ASCII Man]

[ quote ][ i ]Originally posted by blablabla [ /i ]
Blablablabla[ /quote ]

Get rid of the spaces and you get this

Originally posted by blablabla
Blablablabla

Ok?

[ASCII Man]

Or you can do it the easy way as KB said...

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Dutch chap
I'm not good at this quoting thing BTW. How do you get the name of the one you're quoting in the frame?

Click on the quote icon at the top right of the post you want to quote. If you study the code in there it is easy to use it for quoting articles or other other soruces too.

[Tiptop]

MH was a fantastic driver who could beat TGF on a regular basis. When people say that he was only any good when he had a competitive car is complete ****e! Every world champion has a competitive car underneath them but they still need to be a great driver to win the WDC. When has TGF won a title in a TRULY uncompetitive car ? Damon Hill was also a great WORTHY champion who was in the best car in 1996 but many people forget Damon developed the car into a great car since 1991. Adrian Newey must take a great deal of credit for designing the 1998 maclaren....but so must Rory Bryne and Ross Brawn for the ferrari. No difference between TGF and MH in my eyes

[Kicking-back]

Well said, tiptop.