How can we improve British F3?

[andy97]

PS. hasn't the SUDAM series just adopted different engine regs to everyone else, with engines giving out about 270bhp? I think I read it in Autosport. What have they done and should we go the same way?

[Mathias]

Originally posted by bella
now suggest how you propose to do each of those points...

Ah, now, that is the question...,

[tally-bally-ho]

More power + less aero grip is the answer, maybe make it a bit less expensive too so lots of good drivers can afford to race in it.

Definitely not pitstops/refuelling.

[Mathias]

Note to Diz "ten point plan" with eleven points - sorry you missed the humour there.

Sceptic's ten-point plan I have a lot of sympathy with.

"Don't make any changes to cars" - couldn't agree more

"Simplify the calendar" - not sure about this one. While reducing the number of rounds might reduce costs, it might reduce income too (though not through gate receipts at the moment I admit!). I'd like to see Rockingham back too, subject to them fixing the chicane, but not at the expense of Combe, for crying out loud. And I'd personally object to losing the extra Silverstone and Donington rounds cos (a) Silverstone's just so handy for me, er, everyone, and (b) Donington is a fantastic circuit. Get rid of Snetterton though, IMHO. Yeah, I agree going abroad twice will probably be too much for most teams...

"Sort out the web site" - hear hear - but the new britishf3.com semi-official site is a massive improvement on previous efforts.

"Sort out the support races" - GTs isn't really a "support" race - in terms of punter numbers, I think F3 "supports" GTs... It's great to have a feeder single-seater series in FF, so yeah to that, and VWs are fun. I personally am a big fan of both Caterhams and TVRs so wouldn't want to lose either of them, but really, both are effectively GT feeders, so why pair either with F3? Freely admit to being ignorant of Legends - but I'll try anything once (except incest and country dancing, obviously).

"Simplify the timetable" - don't see how that's simpler than what we've got, really, nor how it would particularly improve things! (IMO)

"Don't give teams so many free passes." You're d*mned right that's controversial - it might cut me out! But I do think they should be better controlled. Full season passholders should be registered, and there should be a good reason for them to have a pass.

"Get a title sponsor." Absolutely.

"Live TV.", well, I mean yes, in principle, but, well, would anybody bother going along if it was live on TV? I'd stick with just:

"Combine this with better terrestrial highlights." Totally agree on that one!

"Change nothing now. But start planning now to have this in place next season." Definitely.

[strider]

Originally posted by andy97
Putting the F3s and GTs on the same bill as the BTCC would ensure that more people get to watch.

Longer races would help sort the men from the boys (and teach skills that might be relevant to later careers - looking after tyres and components etc).

Ban sequential gearboxes (a blight on all motor racing, I reckon!).

50-100 BHP more.

A point for pole and a point for fastest lap.

Grid position for race 2 made up from the finishing order of race 1.

NO PITSTOPS.

Just a few thoughts on the above:

If you ran F3 and GT with the current BTCC package, the meetings would have to be about 5 days long!

Longer races would be a good idea, but current timetables don't leave a minute to spare, so would you rather have one long race or two short ones? The first lap is almost always the most exciting.

Sequential gearboxes have their good side - drivers can't down-shift to 2nd rather than 4th, which wrecks an engine. And the ones in F3 are manually controlled, so it's not exactly PlayStation racing.

More power would be good, but then you would have to uprate things like gearboxes and maybe brakes to cope, so it all becomes more expensive. At the moment, we want to make it less expensive so more people can afford to do it.

There is already a point for fastest lap. Don't see the point (sorry!) of giving one for for pole position, because whoever starts there usually wins the race and gets more points for doing that.

The idea about the grid was tried when the two-race format was first introduced, but dropped becasue a driver who fell off (or was punted off) in Race 1 then had his whole weekend ruined. Think what would have happened to Rossiter at Snett yesterday; he would now be even further behind Piquet.

[Paul Rayner]

The first thing I'd like to see F3 do is go to Rockingham. It's a fantastic circuit with an awesome first corner that does bite if you get it wrong. People say F3 would go back there if they changed it - how would you suggest changing it? I have to say it seems no more dangerous to me than Castle Combe with its non-existent run off (there's some controversy for you, but I do think both Rockingham and Combe should be on the calendar).

People say it would be great to be on the support to the BTCC. But then you get the problem of people thinking "hang on, who's supporting who? We should have the garages!" The BTCC would always be the main show - it's got the biggest following. As for which supports which in F3/GTs, if there's such a following for GTs then why is Daily Sportscar the only site that follows it and why does it get less coverage in Autosport than F3? To my mind they should either both be pitched as equal or F3 should be on top. Either way it should be clear.

PowerTour was good if you ignored the brass bands and pom pom girls. And why not use the TOCA podium to take the wiiners round the track? None of the rounds clash, it'd make sense. And why not get the races out after each other with as much efficiency as TOCA are managing this year?

[sceptic]

Originally posted by Mathias
"Live TV.", well, I mean yes, in principle, but, well, would anybody bother going along if it was live on TV?

Live TV for the TOCA tour has coincided (I'm not going to say led to because there are other reasons too) with increases to spectator numbers.

[Tuscan 6]

The most common method of getting more people to watch F3 races suggested here seems to be pairing F3 with a more popular series, like BTCC.

So putting F3 with a popular tin top race makes the former better does it? I suspect you'll find that you end up with a big crowd taking the F3 race as an opportunity to go and get a burger. If they can find someone selling them, and assuming they can afford it.

I have tried watching the F3 races, but personally I don't enjoy it. I find the racing too processional - there isn't enough overtaking and overall it just seems to lack drama.

I also think the same applies to GT - too confusing with the penalties, handicaps, driver ratings etc etc.. However at least you get a visual spectacle of different styles of car. And they get a lot of support, from Porsche, TVR, Noble, Ferrari owners and wannabe owners.

I am also very offended at the suggestion that all the support races are ****. The Tuscans may not have the biggest grids in the world, but the racing is always incredibly close. The cars are exciting to watch - repeated overtaking throughout the field, plenty of sideways action, a few spins and a bit of contact. All because we have loads of power, limited grip and no aero aids.

F3, like F1, needs to find a way of making the racing more exciting and visually dramatic. I think restricting aero aides is the way ahead....

[sceptic]

Originally posted by Tuscan 6
The most common method of getting more people to watch F3 races suggested here seems to be pairing F3 with a more popular series, like BTCC.

I also strongly disagree with that notion. It is essential that the two championships are kept apart.

I am also very offended at the suggestion that all the support races are ****. The Tuscans may not have the biggest grids in the world, but the racing is always incredibly close. The cars are exciting to watch - repeated overtaking throughout the field, plenty of sideways action, a few spins and a bit of contact.

Exciting as it is, it is still just a club championship and has no manufacturer money behind it. So it is hard to justify its presence.

[bella]

f3 and the btcc are totally different series, that i'll agree with. many spectators hate f3 who love the btcc and vice versa.

similarly though there's a problem with f3 and gt. i know many gt fans who think f3 is the most boring thing they've ever seen, and vice versa.

but combining like for like championships into a tin top and single seater weekends doesn't seem like a good idea from gate and money making points of view. surely that would reduce the overall number of tickets bought?

[Tuscan 6]

Originally posted by sceptic


Exciting as it is, it is still just a club championship and has no manufacturer money behind it. So it is hard to justify its presence. [/B]

What an extraordinarily arrogant statement!

I'll tell you what. Put f3 on in its own little race weekend and see how many people turn up. By that I mean see how many people turn up and pay to watch, rather than are invited in on the team's free passes.

f3 can't survive without support races. You'd do well to remember that.

This thread was about how to make f3 better. Some people have suggested pairing it with other series. Others have said the support races are ****. Both these sets of people have failed to recognise that f3 is not capturing the interest of spectators. f3 needs to change, not the support programme.

Finally, what the hell is this 'no manufacturer money behind it so hard to justify its presence' about? TVR run the series, TVR's chairman races, we have title sponsors, prize money and a 30 minute TV programme for every round. Not only that we have a large number of supporters at many of the circuits. When was the last time you saw large numbers of f3 flags being waved by spectators.

I know I shouldn't rise to the bait, but honestly

Bella - I agree - keeping the race packages varied adds to each weekend. A bit of everything keeps interest and should swell numbers. But the 'headline' race needs to be a big attraction, and at the moment I don't think f3 achieves this.

[Kicking-back]

Part of the problem is that too many people in F3 see it as an "industry series" and ignore the need to get bums on seats in the stands, and get people watching on the telly.

[bella]

Originally posted by Tuscan 6
But the 'headline' race needs to be a big attraction, and at the moment I don't think f3 achieves this.

do you think that that's because the public have had it drummed into them that overtaking is a good thing and everything else isn't though?

[littleman]

Have to say I agree with Tuscan 6. The TVR's deserve to be on any support package - it's the Mini's and VW Cup which are a bit iffy.The two TVR races at Snetterton were excellent and probably alot more interesting to the casual spectator than the usual F3 procession.I am a devote F3 fan, but can understand why many people who aren't close to it find it less than exciting.

[Mathias]

Just to calm the stormy waters here, let me make it clear that, personally, I am a big big fan of TVR Tuscan racing. And you only have to look at the huge number of TVRs in the car parks to appreciate the level of support that the series has! But I really don't want this thread to turn into a "this series is better than that series" debate: different types of motorsports attract and entertain different people - I think we can all be tolerant and multi-cultural! And, as has been observed often: if you don't enjoy a particular support/partner race, it does give you the opportunity to have lunch or poke about in the paddock, have a lie-in or go home early...

The key thing on this forum is that we want to improve British F3's lot, and the package of support/partner races is obviously crucial to that.

In my "ten" point plan, I suggested varying the support races between events. IMO most (but not all) people who attend races at the weekend, go to support a particular series. Personally, I go principally to watch F3. What I want to find out is this: would it be more attractive for aficionados of a single-series if the support series changed throughout the year, so they could get a taste of formats they wouldn't otherwise see, or is it better and more exciting for us to have the same series all through the season so we can get to know the drivers/teams and the ins and outs of the championship. Personally, I favour the former, from a punter's point of view. On the other hand, it could be an organisational nightmare that ends up costing more to put on - I don't know...

[Tuscan 6]

Originally posted by bella
do you think that that's because the public have had it drummed into them that overtaking is a good thing and everything else isn't though?

I'm not sure what the everything else is?

When I watch a race I want to see something other than a line of cars going round and round in the same order. Which kind of implies overtaking. I also like to see a bit of sideways stuff - it implies the drivers are on the limit. And like it or not, crowds do like to see an accident or two to spice things up.

If the race is won or lost in qualifying (the day before punters turn up) - its not going to be of much interest to spectators.

If I'm honest I also find the f3's to be noisy b@stards!Always droning on when I'm trying to get set up for my own races I'll also admit I haven't watched an f3 race since Croft - I meant to watch at Knockhill which would have been interesting. I struggled enough with a Tuscan round there, I can't imagine getting an f3 round there without using the kerbs.

[JohnMiller]

Originally posted by Mathias
In my "ten" point plan

To be an pedant, your 'ten point plan' is in no way a plan.

It is a wish list.

A plan is how you are going to get from where you are now to where you want to be. Your wish list is, perhaps, merely identifying where you want to be but does not address the issue of how to get there I think.

[Tuscan 6]

Mathias - my comments weren't directed at you mate. I wholeheartedly agree, different races are different, not better or worse. I took offence at the 'just a club series'.

Back to the thread though, if f3 was a sufficiently big pull in its own right, surely it wouldn't matter what it is supported by? Yes, you might get more people through the gates if all the support races were really popular - but isn't the point to make f3 itself as good as it can be?

[strider]

The TVRs do provide excellent racing and on the track they look pretty good. Not so smart close up, but they are 15 years old and it doesn't really matter. And I'm a confirmed F3 fan.

It would be handy if people stopped being quite so negative about F3. It really isn't that bad. I was amazed when the hot topic after Donington was the lack of hospitality, not the racing. Why do people go to the circuits - to watch the racing or in the hope of free hospitality?

[Mathias]

The question of whether a series is "headline" material is an odd one. If you came to F1 fresh, I believe you'd wonder what all the fuss is about.

And there's the rub - you need to be into it. The reason I put forward the idea of promoting F3 as part of the "Road to F1" is that I honestly can't understand why the tens of thousands of people who cram into Silverstone for British GP weekend at over a ton a throw aren't enthralled by the national series that (a) feeds it, (b) you could see the whole season of for the price of a single GP ticket, and (c) is at least ten times more exciting.

But the answer is simple: it doesn't get enough mainstream media coverage, so no-one's heard of it.

Which is why ITV-F1 and the F1 glossies need to start covering the F1 feeder series - not only would it do wonders for F3 etc, but it would add interest and debate to the F1 world. Speak to many soccer fans, and many know of up-and-coming players from lower leagues... ask most of the sea of red what they think about James Rossiter's chances of a future F1 seat, and well...

[Tuscan 6]

Mathias

Will it help to promote a series as the road to something that you'd wonder what all the fuss is about? (Being devils advocate here)

Foxy - the life expectancy of glass fibre on a Tuscan is pretty short, which explains why some of the cars are not pristeen. Mine will be having its third rear end re spray of the season over the next few days....

[Mathias]

I didn't think your comments were aimed at me, Tuscan, me old mate! Can't argue with the point about the relative "pull" of headliners and supports - you've snookered me there.

JohnMiller - pedantry accepted, but "ten point plan" is just a little pithier than "eleven interrelated points for discussion", and I was hoping for suggestions for their implementation... I'm only an enthusiastic amateur, me.

Foxy and Bella - my sentiments exactly. F3 racing is, in my opinion, fantastic as it is. The key question in my mind - as it is in yours I think - is how to bring more attention, and therefore prestige and so money into the sport. Most of that it seems is about tinkering about at the edges with the media.

And "everything else" includes a fine qualifying performance, terrifying speed, the sheer beauty of taking a corner well, reliability, holding position under pressure, and, of course, spectacular accidents in which no-one is hurt...

[Mathias]

Originally posted by Tuscan 6
Will it help to promote a series as the road to something that you'd wonder what all the fuss is about?

Ah. Hoist with me own petard.

[MikeHoyer]

Personally I think the F3/GT package is good as it is. I was at Snetterton this weekend, and saw some good racing.

The thing about F3 is the way the cars are designed, it is very difficult to overtake with regularity, and I suppose some people want to see overtaking, rather than a driver giving it all over a series of laps to try and get an oppurtunity to overtake.

The support package is good, there are different series for different people, and the VW's and Mini's provide good entertainment value for the people who like to see more "extravagant" racing.

About the crowds, it seemed pretty good sized at Snet, don't know about elsewhere...

[bella]

snett had the best crowd of the year by far...