Do you think JPM brought about his own downfall?

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

How many times are you going to say this AND keep a straight face?

It's true, in my book!

Alonso = Mansell, Barrichello = Patrese and Fisichella = Boutsen if we wish to equivalise them with the late 80s/early 90s. I would say Button = Prost, but he hasn't won a race and Alain won lots.

[Louis B.]

The good performance of the Mclarens under breaking also contributed to the accident. I would be curious to see the telemetry as I suspect that Monteiro did not brake any later than JPM in that turn (he was still too close though or JPM got back in front of him too early). JPM's car did not lose grip under heavy braking while Monteiro's car did.

[Knowlesy]

Monteiro lost grip mainly because JPM will have taken the air from his front wing.

[ASCII Man]

Wasn't it about the same that happened between Jos and Juan several years ago, well not as spectacularly as back then but still very much the same?

[Louis B.]

The medias are associating JPM's loss of the second place as a direct and inevitable consequence of the Monteiro incident.

IMO (having videotaped and reviewed the sequence many times), JPM's loss of a position is ultimately due to his own mistake. I acknowlegde that the rear diffuser of his car had been damaged but, when you look at the replay, he was still able to pull out pretty easily from Alonso in the straights and high speed corners. IMO, Alonso would have finished second but for JPM's mistake going wide and allowing Alonso to overtake him. On this particular event, JPM has only himself to blame.

[Knowlesy]

I would imagine a cars handling becomes unpredictable with a broken diffuser. JPM had to push because Alonso would have been pushing him. Ultimately, it was Alonso who forced the error from JPM and his wounded car.....all credit.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Wasn't it about the same that happened between Jos and Juan several years ago, well not as spectacularly as back then but still very much the same?

That was seen as a Williams problem at the time, as everyone seemed to drive into the back of them! To be honest, I just thought Jos was being his usual inept self, but there you go......

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Monteiro lost grip mainly because JPM will have taken the air from his front wing.

Fair point. I only saw the similar comment made earlier by Martyn Bott after having pressed the "submit" button.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

I would imagine a cars handling becomes unpredictable with a broken diffuser. JPM had to push because Alonso would have been pushing him. Ultimately, it was Alonso who forced the error from JPM and his wounded car.....all credit.

This might be so but that's the easy way out and JPM took it to explain his misfortune. His initial comment though was that the car was handling the same despite the damage. If you look carefully at the replay you will see that JPM went too fast and wide when he went out. If I recall correctly (my replay is of the French broadcast) Brundle indeed praised Alonso for having been concentrated enough not to follow JPM's path. Except for that, no handling problems are noticeable after the Monteiro incident. I would be curious to see JPM's lap times prior and after the Monteiro incident.

[Knowlesy]

I can't imagaine any car with a broken diffuser being easy through such a fast turn. It is plausible that it helped Montoya make the error, caught him out.

Obviously I don't know for sure, having not been driving the MP4/20 at the time.

[Tone]

Dont think anyone has mentioned that JPM was driving with a flat spot, so IMO it was daft to overtake like he did knowing he has to brake earlier than normal because of his tyre..

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Louis B.

The medias are associating JPM's loss of the second place as a direct and inevitable consequence of the Monteiro incident.

IMO (having videotaped and reviewed the sequence many times), JPM's loss of a position is ultimately due to his own mistake. I acknowlegde that the rear diffuser of his car had been damaged but, when you look at the replay, he was still able to pull out pretty easily from Alonso in the straights and high speed corners. IMO, Alonso would have finished second but for JPM's mistake going wide and allowing Alonso to overtake him. On this particular event, JPM has only himself to blame.

..... but without the backmarker incident that cost JPM some valuable time, Alonso would not have been within earshot of JPM, so JPM could easily get the car home in 2nd place without pushing.

[thejester]

Regarding his going wide on T8, not only was the diffusser broken, I'm certain he would've had rear tyre grip problems after the huge amount of smoke they spewed out in the spin following Monteiro running into the back of him. Two massive flat spots I would say. The difference between making 8 at a decent clip and going wide as he did, in that car at that moment would be tiny.

Not an excuse, just something to consider.

Regarding Monteiro, JPM could have played it safer, and in hindsight should have, but the impact was Tiago's fault.

[DKGandBH]

I have no opinion...

[Valve Bounce]

In the final analysis, if JPM had used his brain and passed Monteiro in a less aggresive manner, he would have come second, McLaren would have gained 4 more points than they now have over Renault, and Kimi would have reduced his margin from Alonso by 4 points and not merely 2. Surely, JPM would have known how far Alonso was behind him, and had he followed the Jordan for the rest of the race, he probably still would have come second. That's how stupid his move was. His job was to come second, not blast past Monteiro!!

[Kirk]

I get the impression that most of those that find fault with JPM's pass are merely JPM bashers, who don't like his aggressive driving style. Fact is, that it is the backmarkers responsibility to yield, that includes before, during and after the overtaking has taken place. Occasionally we see backmarkers fighting for position themselves hence they yield minimally to avoid losing a position. This was not the case with Monteiro, he had no reason not to back off completely, but failed to do so; a rookie error that he has trouble admitting to. JPM should not have to worry about a backmarker rear-ending him.

[NO1SPECIAL]

mmmm, on a slightly different topic, i wasn't a fan of JPM before this year but his pace has surprised....used to think he was just an arrogant pretentious snob, and still do.... but he sure is a fast one...

[N I Tram]

The statistic about how close Kimi and JPM's recent results have been is a good one, although it does overlook the places Kimi lost through the two engine changes.

Montiero was more at fault for the incident on Sunday, as he had been blue-flagged and should have eased out of the way more quickly, and not attempted to get back up to racing speed. He had nothing to gain by trying to save 2 seconds, adn JPM had every right to expect a clear piece of track on the racing line. If he had had to go through the corner off-line, he would have risked putting dirt on the tyres, adn by definition Tiago would have held him up.

The tone of some of these posts is unbelievable. All told JPM's season has been quite strong, and since midseason he has been macthing Kimi's form. Drivers who switched teams for this season have genreally caught up after the first 6-8 races, and JPM has showed all teh signs that, given a good car next year, he can challenge Kimi.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Kirk

I get the impression that most of those that find fault with JPM's pass are merely JPM bashers, who don't like his aggressive driving style.

On the other hand just being an ardent JPM fan (as I am actually) should not deprive one of the ability to see the incident from an objective standpoint. Monteiro was caught out by Juan's abrubt and aggressive chop into the braking zone - he could have held a slightly tighter line (ie the line used for conventional overtaking, and amply cleared by others doing that exact thing).

[BootsOntheSide]

JPM's had a strange season, rather like the McLaren team as a whole. When he returned at Barcelona, he had more points than Kimi from half as many races, although this was largely arbitrary. Since then he could've won Canada, should've won Hockenheim, would've won Hungary, and did win Silverstone. I find it believable that he can match Kimi next season, but he will need a good start.

As I remember it, the collision with Tiago lost him more time than the off, and more than the delay in the pits when he tried to pull away with the rig still attached. Add to that the fact that the off was caused by the dmage from the collision, it's clear that this did cost him second. It just looked like a mix-up, JPM perhaps a little too hasty to get through the corner on the fastest line, and Tiago in too much of a hurry despite having nothing to race for. The Verstappen incident was almost entirely Jos' fault, but this one was debatable.

[NO1SPECIAL]

well i didn't see the incident properly so i won't comment on that
but i do think it's a shame that juan is so far behind kimi already or we could be seeing some great racing...oh well, next year

[Glen]

No no - Ron said on TV that they didn't mind which order they got their 1-2 in, if they could get it.

Yea - right.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Glen

On the other hand just being an ardent JPM fan (as I am actually) should not deprive one of the ability to see the incident from an objective standpoint. Monteiro was caught out by Juan's abrubt and aggressive chop into the braking zone - he could have held a slightly tighter line (ie the line used for conventional overtaking, and amply cleared by others doing that exact thing).

When you are shown the blue flag, you should never be "caught out" that a faster driver is coming at you. It was Monteiro's responsibility to allow the faster car through safely. He failed to do this.

In dealing specifically with Monteiro, perhaps Juan would approach it differently next time, but Juan did just as he should.

[Glen]

You can't allow a car to come safely through if the car DOESN'T come safely through, but rather comes through in a somewhat crazy fashion. Monteiro DID allow him to come safely through, but Montoya failed to deliver the "safely" part.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Glen

No no - Ron said on TV that they didn't mind which order they got their 1-2 in, if they could get it.

Yea - right.

I thought of you when he said that and smiled. I agree he did care which way round. Whether he'd have done anything about that remains to be seen