Does this weekend mark the end of a former WDC's career??? - Page 3

davyboy · 18 Oct 2005, 07:59 (Ref:1436738)

Andy, you're totally right... Williams team members have said that any competent F1 driver could have won in the 97 car. Villeneuve was flattered by it. On the downside, he caused a lot of trouble within the team with political games and whatnot and did not endear himself to his crew. The Williams guys believe that when he went to BAR, his head was even further inflated and he acted like a prima-donna blaming everything on the car... clearly not the kind of 'help' you want when trying to get something off the ground as they were doing. And if you don't believe that... ask yourself why would a 'racer' bleed such an disproportionate amount of money from a teams budget as salary... when 'his sole objective' was to win. Dave Richards said that the USD19M or whatever they were paying him significantly hurt BAR's development budget. Villeneuve at the time was the second highest paid driver on the grid behind Schuey and was totally undeserved of it. Jacques was definitely in a different league to his dad... a much lower one.

VilleneuveTracy · 18 Oct 2005, 08:24 (Ref:1436762)

HHF wasn't a competent F1 driver??? He almost won the WDC in a Jordan!!! What about 1996? Why did JV--as a rookie--almost beat Damon Hill for the WDC? Was Damon Hill a fraud too???

BTW, how often do drivers win the WDC in an inferior package? Would Alonso have won if he wasn't in a Renault this year? Would Hakkinen have won in a car other than McLaren in 1998-1999? Hill in 1996? Yes, JV was in the best car in 1997. WHy, though? Williams was at the top of the racing world at the time. They could have gotten virtually anyone to drive the car. Why in the world did they pick JV, who was allegedly a total fraud behind the wheel at Williams???

If I drove the 1997 Williams I would have won 14 races and scored a thousand WDC points...

Quote:

Despite the fact that JV scored 81 to HHF 41, their race pace was not too disimilar; HHF suffered more DNFs though.

JV had 7 wins. Didn't HHF just have 1? Was that all due to luck? Or was HHF Fisichella to JV's Alonso in 1997?

rustyfan · 18 Oct 2005, 09:25 (Ref:1436809)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I think it is the end. Too bad to see it end this way. He'd be better in Champcars especially with the new formula in 2007 and I think he would enjoy that better.

He has said multiple times that Champ Car is totally uninteresting to him, and I doubt even the new formula in 2007 would change his opinion.

Purely speculating I guess the current look of the Champ Car schedule might have something to do with his opinion as well - somehow I just can't imagine Villeneuve being interested in racing almost exclusively on street circuits.

davyboy · 18 Oct 2005, 11:36 (Ref:1436900)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VilleneuveTracy

HHF wasn't a competent F1 driver??? He almost won the WDC in a Jordan!!! What about 1996? Why did JV--as a rookie--almost beat Damon Hill for the WDC? Was Damon Hill a fraud too???

BTW, how often do drivers win the WDC in an inferior package? Would Alonso have won if he wasn't in a Renault this year? Would Hakkinen have won in a car other than McLaren in 1998-1999? Hill in 1996? Yes, JV was in the best car in 1997. WHy, though? Williams was at the top of the racing world at the time. They could have gotten virtually anyone to drive the car. Why in the world did they pick JV, who was allegedly a total fraud behind the wheel at Williams???

If I drove the 1997 Williams I would have won 14 races and scored a thousand WDC points...

JV had 7 wins. Didn't HHF just have 1? Was that all due to luck? Or was HHF Fisichella to JV's Alonso in 1997?

I suppose its the wrong kind of discussion to be having with such an ardent a JV fan

You're right that a superior car is always the ultimate ingredient to a successful championship and most drivers win races and championships in the best car. However the 1997 Williams was far superior to anything else out there and flattered Jacques' driving. The 1996 Williams flattered Damon Hill's driving too. HHF is a very emotional person who suffered in the terse, unsupportive environment of Williams and underperformed. He probably is a better driver than JV on a good day, but squandered a great opportunity that year.

But consider why he did what he did after Williams ? He's not really demonstrated anything at all from a driving perspective [at F1 level] and from the outside his post-Williams years looked a lot more like wealth creation than career development.

I was so excited at JV's arrival in F1 and so defalted when he and Pollock did what they did in moving to BAR.

SpawnyWhippet · 18 Oct 2005, 11:41 (Ref:1436902)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VilleneuveTracy

HHF wasn't a competent F1 driver??? He almost won the WDC in a Jordan!!! What about 1996? Why did JV--as a rookie--almost beat Damon Hill for the WDC? Was Damon Hill a fraud too???

Neither Damon or HHF were really classic WDC material either, IMO. Damon was excellent at qualifying and putting in smooth, quick laps, but lacked that extra something that Kimi, Alonso, MS and to an extent Mika have all displayed. The Jordan at that time was comparitively a much better animal than the current Jordanski's that flog round at the back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VilleneuveTracy

JV had 7 wins. Didn't HHF just have 1? Was that all due to luck? Or was HHF Fisichella to JV's Alonso in 1997?

Thats true on the face of it, but if you look more closely, you will see their race pace was pretty close, and they traded fastest laps. To summarise, I think in 97, JV had the edge on HHF, but it was the sort of edge that Kimi has over JPM, rather than the edge that MS has over RB or Alonso over Fisi.

Glen · 18 Oct 2005, 12:53 (Ref:1436941)

Rumours have it that Fisi and Kovalainen are both linked with possible BMW drives - those kind of rumours are not much to go by, but the silence from BMW about retaining JV is significant I feel.

A super-strong season's end from Jacques might have provided some mitigation, but it never really came. Whilst Massa did not exactly beat him comprehensively, he did nonetheless win through - and there wasn't too much in the way of reliability issues and so on to cloud that picture.

I doubt JV is going to be much interested in a "lesser" drive, or indeed testing/3rd driver duties - so... that could be game over. Having said that, he has come back before!

Louis B. · 18 Oct 2005, 13:36 (Ref:1436962)

Glen,

You are much more careful these days my friend. Don't forget our bet of mid-season whereby you were positive that this was JV's last season.

Just to make you sweat a bit (and as a tiny light in this dark tunnel that JV fans are going through at the moment) the news on the radio this morning here in Montreal were that Delarosa had reportedly said that he would not have a drive with BMW in 2006 because he had been told by BMW that they would go on with JV for next season.

I'm gonna check the news now on other sources and revert.

Louis B. · 18 Oct 2005, 14:00 (Ref:1436978)

I haven't found so far anything on the net confirming the news I heard on the radio (see my above post)

I see though that BMW's next year livery will apparently be blue, white and red. These are clearly francophone colours.

Louis B. · 18 Oct 2005, 16:05 (Ref:1437078)

Delarosa's declaration I mentionned above was apparently first reported last Saturday (i.e. before the race). See:

http://www.f1today.nl/index.php?loca...&nieuwsid=4642

I have so far not seen it on any English speaking site. How long is BMW going to keep the JV fans waiting?

Knowlesy · 18 Oct 2005, 16:56 (Ref:1437134)

Probably until they've evaluated all his potential replacements.

Louis B. · 18 Oct 2005, 18:22 (Ref:1437187)

Patience is not my cup of tea. Don't you enjoy the situation Knowlesy?

Knowlesy · 18 Oct 2005, 20:10 (Ref:1437288)

Enjoy what situation?

I'm indifferent really.......whether Jacques stays or goes is somewhat minor to me. I like him, but at the same time want another guy to get a chance.

JV hasn't really indicated he's suited to modern F1 this season really.

ASCII Man · 18 Oct 2005, 20:15 (Ref:1437293)

I am quite certain that Jacques will be driving for BMW next season, myes. °strokes kitty°

Knowlesy · 18 Oct 2005, 20:15 (Ref:1437294)

You're starting to sound like the man himself!

ASCII Man · 18 Oct 2005, 20:18 (Ref:1437296)

Scary, isn't it?

**Bononi** · 18 Oct 2005, 20:29 (Ref:1437307)

Jacques ASCIIneuve ...

Knowlesy · 18 Oct 2005, 20:31 (Ref:1437312)

Scary cross-breed, that....

**Adam43** · 18 Oct 2005, 21:20 (Ref:1437359)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis B.

How long is BMW going to keep the JV fans waiting?

I guess they have no rush. Although if they do end up keeping JV (which I think hey will) it can't help his attitude towards the team.

mountainstar · 18 Oct 2005, 23:42 (Ref:1437445)

If you think about it, next season is going to be a bit of a mess for BMW as they change stuff and expand the infrastructure, so it's probably not going to matter who's driving.

Glen · 19 Oct 2005, 08:34 (Ref:1437707)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis B.

Glen,

You are much more careful these days my friend. Don't forget our bet of mid-season whereby you were positive that this was JV's last season.

I don't forget so easily Louis! Not as easily as you hhave forgotten the other bet about Massa overhauling JV in the final few races. I wonder why you didn't mention that one?

BootsOntheSide · 19 Oct 2005, 08:59 (Ref:1437719)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

If you think about it, next season is going to be a bit of a mess for BMW as they change stuff and expand the infrastructure, so it's probably not going to matter who's driving.

On the contrary. Firstly, they need a driver who can develop the car as much as possible and keep the team motivated and positive, and that seems to describe Nick perfectly. Secondly, JV has not tended to perform well when presented with an uncompetitive car, and I doubt that his motivation would remain high for long under those circumstances, especially now that he must feel somewhat unwanted by the team. Thirdly, if the car won't be competitive in anyone's hands, this is the perfect chance to groom a new driver for the future, and there are plenty of contenders.

From Glen's rumour about either Fisichella or Kovalainen taking the drive, I wonder if there has been contact with Renault? Those two are mutually exclusive for next year - one will be racing for Renault and the other may be available.

Louis B. · 19 Oct 2005, 15:52 (Ref:1438071)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen

I don't forget so easily Louis! Not as easily as you hhave forgotten the other bet about Massa overhauling JV in the final few races. I wonder why you didn't mention that one?

I truly don't recall the other bet "about Massa overhauling JV in the final few races" but please point out to me the pertinent posts and I will honour whichever bet I may have entered into. I just hope it is properly defined since:

If the bet was who would end up ahead for the total of the points then you won;
If the bet was who had the edge over the other for the four or three last races then my position is that JV had the edge over Massa at Spa; that Brasil and Japan were even (I would even add slight advantage for JV); and that Massa had the edge over JV in China by perhaps the biggest margin in all the last four races (China: I just wish Dr. Theissen had been on holliday during that one).

Please let me know.

Glen · 19 Oct 2005, 16:21 (Ref:1438109)

I can't trawl through all those posts to find it! At the time you were very keen to point out that JV had more points, and I remember saying how strange it was that all of a sudden points were considered a good gauge of performance - now it seems that normal service has been resumed and excuses are preferred once again.

How you can make Japan even is beyond me - didn't Massa overtake JV, later in the race after Jacques had spoilt the party for JPM? I guess that doesn't count in dreamland.

QuickSilver · 19 Oct 2005, 16:33 (Ref:1438124)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixie Flatline

Interesting theory, but I for one doubt that JV has the marketing appeal to help BMW shift more cars because he's driving for their Formula One team.

1,400 posts and I'm surprised nobody's taken this further.

As much as we'd all like F1 to be purely about racing, it's also a huge marketing machine. Dixie's point is well taken - JV's marketing appeal is limited. He was almost embarrassing in Honda ads and I doubt BMW will make the same mistake.

Limited marketing appeal = limited reasons BMW will keep him.

Being blindingly fast would be a good reason to keep him because - from a marketing perspective - he would be capable of constantly putting the BMW, with the BMW logos and all the sponsors logos on our TV screens. Unfortunately, his speed has been up for debate on this forum for a long time.

I guess my point is F1 pilots play multiple roles, only one of which is driving on a Sunday afternoon. JV was fun when he was the F1 wild-child, but I think that appeal has dwindled.

QuickSilver · 19 Oct 2005, 16:39 (Ref:1438128)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen

How you can make Japan even is beyond me - didn't Massa overtake JV, later in the race after Jacques had spoilt the party for JPM? I guess that doesn't count in dreamland.

Glen,

I'll give you the same reason Louis offered me in another JV thread ... that pass happened as a result of pitstops and therefore doesn't count.

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