Wurz for Williams?

[ASCII Man]

OMG RIFK - how hilarious!

Wait.. no it's not.

[NO1SPECIAL]

RIFK? I've looked in common acronyms and it's not listed - I think I can guess the F but what does the R I and K stand for?

[Skam85]

Roll In Fits K....?

[Nado]

Rolling in the Floor Kicking

http://www.acronymfinder.com/

NO1SPECIAL: Please tell me you're my clone! :thumbsup: I agree with your post, especially number 6 which I've been preaching for every since the announcement.

[Skam85]

How can anyone roll IN the floor?

I would presume that would be difficult.

[NO1SPECIAL]

Thanks for that Than Ha - and like you said Skam85, it does seem difficult.

Regarding whether or not we are clones....probably not. Having read several of your previous posts I think it's more likely that I am instead your evil twin!

[Super Tourer]

Originally Posted by NO1SPECIAL

1. I never said you did disagree that having Wurz would help.

2. I did make an analogy between last year's Renault budget and this year's Williams budget at first only insofar as the largest budget does not necessarily always win. It is well known that the 2005 Renault budget was not as large as some of their competitors. I then went on to suggest that your statement that the 2006 Williams budget was "nowhere near" the Renault budget of 2005 might not be true. And I gave reasons to show why. (Remember SFW's statement that Williams had a budget the equal of anyone in the F1 paddock).

3. Flavio might be a big spender, but he can't spend what he isn't given.

4. Renault are a big international company but that doesn't mean they throw money away.

5. Williams lost BMW. Yes, but BMW were I believe only supplying engines. Also, if memory serves, they were contracted to 2009 and as I also said, they are obliged to either supply Williams with engines or pay the equivalent. Williams chose the latter. So how much have Williams really lost here?

6. Williams lost HP. Yes, HP is no longer a sponsor. But HP were contracted for 2006 also. So either they are forced to come up with full payment anyway or, as is more likely, they reached an agreement with Williams for a payout - which, I'd suggest, Williams would only agree to in the case that they had a new sponsor to pick up the shortfall. In short - Williams probably made money here.

7. Williams let Button go for money despite having said they would not. True. A lot of money it was too. Merely sound business sense I would suggest.

8. Williams did not exercise their option over NH. Maybe not - though I think it more likely that they did and an agreement was reached with BMW who then bought Williams out. Of this I have no proof so won't press it.

9. Last time I checked, Wurz got the testing job so NK and his dollars should not be linked to them anymore. Doesn't this give the appearance that they aren't desperate for cash?

10. I don't think I've over-reacted - All I have done is state fact after fact. Pot calling the kettle black?

So now please tell me why this year's Williams budget cannot be compared to last year's Renault budget, and why Williams must be considered "very, very, very long shots to say the least."

According to Business F1's annual report of team budgets.

2005 figs

Renault budget $275M of which $110M comes directly from Renault.
Williams budget $262M of which $117M came from BMW and $38M from HP - incidentally BMW's amount included $22M in cash sponsorship.

I would have thought it unlikely that Williams will be able to replace all the $155M shortfall in one year. RBS may take more space on the car vacated by HP and Samsung have been linked with Williams in the past, but may appear at Honda . Williams have signed new deals in recent years, but these have been relatively small, Bud for example is worth $4M and Oris watches $2.75M.

There will be some payounts from HP and BMW, although I believe that the last deal BMW negoitated with Williams was allegedly on much less favourable terms for Williams and with little in the way of onerous termination payments.

Similarly, it's unlikely that HP will have to make a full settlement. they might as well have seen out the remainder of the contract if that was the case, it's more likely they agreed a reduced settlement from Williams, which gives the team an element of the fee and the space to re-sell.

Obviously Williams will have a cushion from money saved on the drivers wages from last year and this bill will probably be less this year.

In round figures working from the Business F1 figures, Williams will have a net budget of $107M, plus say an increase in RBS of say $15M, a payout from HP of say £20M, possibly the same from BMW and of course add in Jenson's payout - it probably equals a budget for 2006 of $180M to $200M. Plus any new deals of course.

[NO1SPECIAL]

I think it's inconceivable that Williams would let a signed sponsor go if it was going to cost them money. Contracts still do mean something.

Anyway, let's assume that Williams covered their backsides so that they don't lose anything from the loss of HP, which seems likely. And that BMW pay Williams 20 mill.

OK, Williams and Cosworth are in a partnership, so let's guess 50/50 split of cost. If Cosworth need say $90M to supply and develop their engines then Williams would be up for a cost of $45M (I've set the figure lower than BMW's $117M as it seems a fair assumption that Cosworth will not need as much money to develop their V8 as they have long experience with this engine).

This $45M loss should be offset by the $20M BMW payout and the Button payout (say $25M).

They should only be spending around $45M this year on their engine instead of the supposed $117M they spent last year.
So while their budget would be slightly lower in 2006, so would their costs.

So from your figures, last year they had a budget of $157M purely to spend on the car. This year they should have around the same, once the cost of buying their engines is taken out.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

In round figures working from the Business F1 figures, Williams will have a net budget of $107M, plus say an increase in RBS of say $15M, a payout from HP of say £20M, possibly the same from BMW and of course add in Jenson's payout - it probably equals a budget for 2006 of $180M to $200M. Plus any new deals of course.

And a significant amount of this budget goes into the Cosworth deal while, correct me if I am wrong, I don't think the costs for the R&D / evolution of a work engine is included in the budget of the happy teams benefitting from such a deal.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by lookleft

OMG - quick, get the dictionary back out and look up hypocrite

You better look for the definition as I don't think you know what it means. FYI (which, for the sake of clarity, means "for your information" and not "f*** you idiot"), I feel comfortable that you won't find in my previous posts any precedents allowing you to sustain that I am hypocrit. My victims normally see my bulldozer coming well in advance (unless, obviously, they are looking to the left when I'm arriving from the right).

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by NO1SPECIAL

So now please tell me why this year's Williams budget cannot be compared to last year's Renault budget, and why Williams must be considered "very, very, very long shots to say the least."

I think I tried to explain to you why I do believe that Williams is going through a difficult period, financially speaking. Let's agree that we disagree.

Insofar as concerns your second question, I personnally predict that Williams will finish ahead of Torro Rosso, Midland f1 and Super Aguri in the Constuctor Championship race. Subject to what we should learn in the upcoming testing, they might be able to fight with BMW, Red Bull and perhaps Toyota. However, they won't even be close from the others: McLaren, Renault, Ferrari, Honda and (perhaps) Toyota. The reason is simply that they don't have the financial ressources to do any better but, again, this is where you and I strongly disagree.

[Super Tourer]

Whilst I think that it will be very tight behind McLaren, Ferrari and Renault, I don't see Williams struggling to the extent you suggest.

BAR have yet to produce a car that is consistent throughout an entire race distance, the common trait has been for the pace to drop off in the mid sector of the race which is where they have lost most of their time IIRC. I don't see them eating Williams for dinner.

BMW have a massive task to integrate themselves into the Sauber operation, as we speak they are still building infarstructure around the factory. They will run with the 2006 car Sauber were already underway with, which will surely be steady not spectacular if recent years are anything to go by.

Of course Toyota will be strong, with the usual Gascoyne tranche of ongoing improvements to the car - does this mean they will dominate the 'best of the rest'? I think they will be strong in parts, but like BAR we have yet to see them produce a consistently strong car across a whole season and race distance.

One of the crucial factors in running V8's is going to be eliminating vibratation, as far as I can recall Cosworth have run their engine at the highest rev range without vibration and may be one of the few to have reached this yet.

I wouldn't write the Williams/Cosworth combo off by any means, Williams will have learnt from their last two years of flailing about on the aero front and I think we will see a much more pragmatic car from them as a result. They have also now fully calibrated their wind tunnel, which like other teams, they found was a route down a blind alley....

All to play for in the upper mid -field pack IMO.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by NO1SPECIAL

RIFK? I've looked in common acronyms and it's not listed - I think I can guess the F but what does the R I and K stand for?

RIFK - a common acronym in online gaming when the gamer intends to type ROFL, but in all his haste mistypes it and types the I and the K instead of the O and the L, resulting in RIFK instead of ROFL.
It has since been accepted as an alternative to ROFL in the online gaming community, and elsewhere.

On subject of Williams' budget, I don't think that Williams are strapped for cash as Louis suggests, but they don't have bucketloads either, and also do not have the luxury of a high profile manufacturer backing them with shedloads of technical assistance and the likes either.

Cosworth is not as big a company as Mercedes-Illmor, Ferrari, or BMW.

But I'd expect the experience of Cosworth in V8's to shine in the first half of the season, followed with a decline in performance, power-wise.

The aero performance of the Williams cars wouldn't be seriously affected, if at all, so that may be one of their strong points this season.
I'd expect them to perform well at high-aero circuits like Monaco and Hungary.

[NO1SPECIAL]

Thanks ASCII Man, sounds like you're a touch typist.

So, for anyone who knows, am i right in thinking that the $95M BMW gave to Williams last year ($117M - the $22M cash sponsorship) is simply the cost of the engines, associated materials and workmanship? Or is this $95M in funding which Williams are free to spend on whatever they like - on top of which they get free engines?

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

BAR have yet to produce a car that is consistent throughout an entire race distance, the common trait has been for the pace to drop off in the mid sector of the race which is where they have lost most of their time IIRC. I don't see them eating Williams for dinner.

It will be for breakfast. Otherwise, Mr. Button will be very annoyed (this would be a very sweet revenge for Williams).

In a nutshell, you and I both see Williams in the mid-pack. You see them in front of that mid-pack while I rather see them at the end of it.

[NO1SPECIAL]

Originally Posted by Louis B.

Let's agree that we disagree.

It is so agreed.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

On subject of Williams' budget, I don't think that Williams are strapped for cash as Louis suggests, but they don't have bucketloads either, and also do not have the luxury of a high profile manufacturer backing them with shedloads of technical assistance and the likes either.

I agree with that. The point we were debatting (or which made me intervene) is NO1 Special's point that Williams' current financial situation is similar or comparable to what was Renault's situation last year. I would not have said a word if he had compared it with RBR's financial backing of last year.

[NO1SPECIAL]

Originally Posted by Louis B.

I agree with that. The point we were debatting (or which made me intervene) is NO1 Special's point that Williams' current financial situation is similar or comparable to what was Renault's situation last year. I would not have said a word if he had compared it with RBR's financial backing of last year.

But Louis, if I'm right in my thinking in post #64, and Williams are only paying about half the cost of the engines plus R&D to Cosworth (let's say it costs Williams $50M), then the BMW payout and the Button payout alone should cover this. You say they lost HP but I tell you they could have lost no money in this deal - HP were committed.

So if BMW are forced to pay the $22M they paid last year for sponsorship, and not just compensation for pulling out of their contract (engine supply or the equivalent), then effectively they have the same budget as last year. Either way, $22M less would not put Williams "nowhere near" the Renault 2005 budget.

One last thing, my nick is supposed to be "No One Special", not "Number One Special," which don't really matter I spose.

[Kirk]

For the Williams team, there trump card may very well be the Cosworth. If it proves to be quick out of the box which appears to be the case, any immediate lack of resources should not be a huge problem. Having said that, the consesus in general is that they could quite easily find themselves slipping backward as the season progresses and the big-budget teams reach their stride. On the other hand, the Williams team are reputedly quite tight with the dollar; they may be better off financially then we think.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by NO1SPECIAL

One last thing, my nick is supposed to be "No One Special", not "Number One Special," which don't really matter I spose.

Sorry I truly belived this is what it meant and I was not trying to make anything of it when I typed that. You just made me realise that "no" as an abreviation for "number" is French. We should have a thread on Parc Fermé as to what is meant or referred to by each poster's public name.

On the figures' side of our friendly debate, neither you nor I know the actual figures such that we both rely upon our beliefs and second hand / incomplete information. I could probably dig out for you the news published throughout the season that Williams were encountering difficult times financially, including Eddie Jordan's declaration that he had told Williams he should have sold the team.

I will be happy for Williams if they do well this year. I would just not put my expectations too high if I were you.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Kirk

For the Williams team, there trump card may very well be the Cosworth. If it proves to be quick out of the box which appears to be the case, any immediate lack of resources should not be a huge problem.

This kind of remark has been puzzling me for a while. What does make so many of you say so on this forum. My recollection of the facts (maybe erroneous and that's why I am stating it here in a point form) is:

1. Cosworth was ditched by Ford;
2. It was nevertheless able to decently update the V10 run by Jaquar such that Red Bull had a decent engine in 2005;
3. Red Bull had not much confidence in Cosworth capacity to develop a V8 along the new 2006 rules such that it went for a Ferrari engine 2006;
4. After being ditched by BMW, Williams elected (it was never confirmed that they had any other choice but there were rumours that the could have bought a Honda) to enter in a joint venture with Cosworth whereby Williams is putting money for the R&D of the new engine;
5. There was some video published on the internet showing a Cosworth allegedly run at over 20000 rpm. This is since then that I've read excited remarks as to the performance of Cosworth;
6. As far as I recall, cars powered by the new V8 Cosworth have not shown any significant edge over the other V8 powered cars in testing.

This is my understanding but most of my f1 attention was canalised on the issue as to whether I would be following bowling or f1 in 2006. It was not resolved until November such that I would truly like to know what is the factual basis of the confidence shown by many of you in Cosworth.

[NO1SPECIAL]

Originally Posted by Louis B.

Sorry I truly belived this is what it meant and I was not trying to make anything of it when I typed that. You just made me realise that "no" as an abreviation for "number" is French. We should have a thread on Parc Fermé as to what is meant or referred to by each poster's public name.

I will be happy for Williams if they do well this year. I would just not put my expectations too high if I were you.

No problem, I never thought you meant any disrespect but I just thought I'd take the opportunity to state what it's supposed to be as it seems a common misconception - and looking at it myself I can see why.

Anyways, how about a friendly wager Louis? I've got $20 (US) that says Williams will beat BMW in the Constructors Championship in 2006 - are you game?

[Super Tourer]

Originally Posted by NO1SPECIAL

Thanks ASCII Man, sounds like you're a touch typist.

So, for anyone who knows, am i right in thinking that the $95M BMW gave to Williams last year ($117M - the $22M cash sponsorship) is simply the cost of the engines, associated materials and workmanship? Or is this $95M in funding which Williams are free to spend on whatever they like - on top of which they get free engines?

The $95M is the engine supply element, which presumably covers all costs associated with the engines. The $22M is pure cash sponsorship, you may recall that SFW negotiated a seperate fee from BMW in order that they could assume effective title sponsorship of the team.

[NO1SPECIAL]

So considering that we know BMW have to pay the cash equivalent of an engine supply to Williams - why wouldn't this figure be $50M or upwards (or somewhere close to the $95M BMW spent in 2005)?

AND

Do BMW have to pay any compensation for pulling out of their sponsorship of BMW (the $22M figure)?

[Super Tourer]

I don't think BMW had to pay Williams a settlement equivalent to engine supply, they were allegedly very careful in drawing up the last contract renewal with Williams, you may recall it dragged on for a long time with Patrick Head describing it as on 'less favourable terms' or words to that effect.

It's also important to remember that Mario Theissen sold the BMW Team plan to the BMW board on the basis that it would be covered within exisiting budgets and eventually heavily funded by outside partners/sponsors. This doesn't square with BMW making massive payments to Williams on top of funding their own team.

We can only guess at figures, but I would imagine that whatever payments Williams have received from BMW they will be nothing like the contracted commitments.

We assuming that the contract is all in Williams favour, but it's not inconceivable that BMW could have envoked a possible performance based clause in their contract - say Williams finished outside the top 4 in the constructors or didn't score a race win and BMW could terminate the contract without penalty?