ARDS Test

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by MikeBz

£350 You can do it in a half day for £250 (which is about what Thruxton and Mallory charge I think).

Mike

Silverstone off more of an "experience", you get to play around in Elises and Caterhams for a bit, i think.
Thruxton, Mallory and Goodwood all charge £250, tho Goodwood recommend extra tuition first for anyone who isn't an F1 driver already (at £100 for 1/2 hour).

I wasn't impressed with the TT either, after driving it at Brands.

[Bob Pearson]

It's all enough to make you sick!!! How does anyone suppose we started racing before all this guff was invented, it's just jobs for the boys in the most blatent form.
Before this lot burst on the scene we simply brought a car, got a licence and went to a test day. To cap it all, I am certain there are more pointless accidents now than there was prior to all this tuition and ARDS. In fact, to quote the ARDS man from Mallory some years ago " drivers just have their first big accident earlier now"

I feel much better now I've said that

[MikeBz]

I can see where you're coming from Bob. I think that if it is deemed necessary to have a test which costs £££ then it should be more thorough - if someone who has never been on a track in their life can turn up and be deemed fit to hold a licence in half a day and a handful of laps then that doesn't seem much 'better' than no test at all.

Mike

[johngee]

I tend to agree with you Bob. From my experiences, dealing with 'novice' and 'first time' drivers, the ARDS test contributes very little and certainly does not seem to equip a new driver with the knowledge of what to expect at a race meeting. I hope that remark doesn't cost me my clerk's licence!!! LOL

[Bob Pearson]

It wasn't quite what I meant Mike, but it is an interesting slant.
So, if that was the criteria what should the test look like:
For sake of debate, here are my thoughts;
What causes race car accidents, judgement errors, mechanical problems and downright thoughtlessness.
can't cover the mechanical problems with a test, so the first and last seem to be the issue.
Judgement errors? comes with the territory, it's part of the game.
Downright thoughtlessness, that's another issue, it's a very wide thing that encompasses not being patient enough to learn from others through to being prepared to push another car off the track rather than concede that a corner is lost. That is a problem, how can we check someone for that?

For the record, there are 3 racing members of this family, if you take each person's heaviest accident, only one is a driving error, the other two were mechanical failures. What does that tell us, other than we don't know how to prepare cars properly.

[Bob Pearson]

I seem to be one step behind here. The question really is John, from your point of view, and as a clerk your opinion is important, is there a need for a test at all? Of the sins you have to deal with, how many of them are perpetuated by novice drivers. From my position, i.e the track, novice drivers are overawed with the whole thing and full of respect for the experienced drivers and keen to learn and avoid problems.

[johngee]

Well Bob, I think there is a need for some sort of test or tuition but the current system is 'testing' the wrong things. Most of the 'novice driver' problems that I have to deal with are not related to track behaviour but just caused by 'ignorance' e.g. missing briefings, not signing on, not having a transponder (or not knowing where to get one!), having the wrong number on the car, missing practice ("Oh - I thought it was optional when you've passed your ARDS test" - yes really!).....the list goes on. What is most effective and I know works informally in the HSCC, is a 'buddy' system, where a novice 'attaches' himself to an experienced competitor for 2/3 meetings until he/she knows the form. I guess, in short, it's the knowledge of the whole organisation of a race meeting that's currently missing - the sheer desire to drive fast and race, qualifies most people to be out on a track with a novice cross and we can soon spot the odd one or two who are 'out of their depth'.

[GordonG]

One of the most interesting bits of "training" I've seen recently was (I think) in the MSA bulletin - a piece about overtaking into a corner, and who is "wrong" if there is a coming together (usually both, but to varying degrees, it would seem). My recollection of the ARDS test is that no mention is made of overtaking or the "rules of the road" vis racing.

It's a bit like the road driving test not including motorways - the first time you encounter overtaking is in your first race.

One of my previous hobbies was sailing (racing). The rule book for sailing covers each and every way 2 (or more) boats can come together, and who has right of way in each case. There are no such rules in motor racing (and given the speeds and danger involved they wouldnt really be practical) but even picking up what is accepted practice is a word of mouth/watch and learn/try stuff till you stop getting paged by the CoC affair.

The ARDS test should definitely pay more attention to what goes on in *racing* rather than just driving in circles looking for flags (which, FTAOD, is also V important).

G

[Tim Wilkinson]

RE: buddy system - good idea, the thought of racing makes me nervous, but nothing compared to having to deal with the whole day. I've already asked a racing friend to "hold my hand" for my first couple of races.

It's not a new problem either - when I bought my car it came with a lot of results sheets, and a receipt for a fine for missing a first time drivers briefing.

[Bob Pearson]

I like the buddy idea as well. All aspects of what to do on the first day can be covered in this way. Such issues as flags etc are covered in the blue book
the more I think about it, the buddy thing I fancy would be far more useful than an ARDS and would cost the competitor nothing and in turn encourage more people to join in.
I remember reading that bit about overtaking, in reality the important issue could be covered to the novice by the words "if your not level with him back out of it"
Sure, with more experience there are other approaches, but for the novice it is a good safe point to start from.

[JohnD]

All,
In my first season, I was lucky acquire a buddy who was enormous help in just those things mentioned above, the process of getting out racing - "Come on! It's time to sign on/be scrutineered/put your playsuit on!" (Thanks, Mark!)

It has been promoted in my series, but maybe people are too proud to take it up. The informal way may be the best, so if you see a novice cross........

John

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by JohnD

All,
...It has been promoted in my series, but maybe people are too proud to take it up. The informal way may be the best, so if you see a novice cross........

John

What series do you race in John?

[JohnD]

Triumph Sports Six Club/ TR Register.
Spitfires, GT6s, TRs, occasional Herald or Vitesse.
What about you, Pete?
John

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Triumph Sports Six Club/ TR Register.
Spitfires, GT6s, TRs, occasional Herald or Vitesse.
What about you, Pete?
John

Working on prep'ing a metro for tin-tops and/or MGCC metro series.
Haven't actually raced anything (other than a mountainbike...) yet.

Pete

[JohnD]

Pete,
The Triumphs will be at the MGCC Silverstone meeting in June, where there will be a TSSC/TRR race. Come on over the other side for a while and look us up in the Triumph paddock!
It's an enormous meeting, so you are likely to be some way away from us, even practicing and racing on different days, so much as I would volunteer to 'buddy' you, it may not be practical. And as you will be carrying a novice cross, may I suggest you chat to the guy next to you in your paddock? Just ask where you sign on, get scrutineered etc. Co-opt him as a buddy! If he won't bite, try the guy on the other side!

If you make it to the Triumph padock, mine is the silver/black Vitesse Estate.

Good luck!
John

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Pete,
The Triumphs will be at the MGCC Silverstone meeting in June, where there will be a TSSC/TRR race. Come on over the other side for a while and look us up in the Triumph paddock!
It's an enormous meeting, so you are likely to be some way away from us, even practicing and racing on different days, so much as I would volunteer to 'buddy' you, it may not be practical. And as you will be carrying a novice cross, may I suggest you chat to the guy next to you in your paddock? Just ask where you sign on, get scrutineered etc. Co-opt him as a buddy! If he won't bite, try the guy on the other side!

If you make it to the Triumph padock, mine is the silver/black Vitesse Estate.

Good luck!
John

Hi John,

Thats for the post. At the moment, though the car should be ready by June, I'm not sure how the bank balance will look! I should be at that MGCC race anyway though as it's local, so I'll wonder over. As I've been about at races for years helping mates out etc, I'm not to worried about being in the right place at the right time, as I realise that everyone has to start somewhere. I know of 1 person (who has raced for years) who was first out for practice at that race last year and managed to head for the GP instead of national track.

At the moment, I need to finish getting the car sorted, then I want some more track experience (and probably instruction) before I race it, I will try to carch up with you in June anyway.

Cheers,
Pete

[Chris Roden]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

I know of 1 person (who has raced for years) who was first out for practice at that race last year and managed to head for the GP instead of national track.

I think we've all done that at one time or another...despite dire warnings from the Clerk

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Chris Roden

I think we've all done that at one time or another...despite dire warnings from the Clerk

I think that proves that nobody listens to a word I say

[Chris Roden]

Originally Posted by johngee

I think that proves that nobody listens to a word I say

Pardon?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Chris Roden

Pardon?

Case proved. £100 fine - 3 points - next please?

[Chris Roden]

Originally Posted by johngee

Case proved. £100 fine - 3 points - next please?

Fancy forming a comedy double act?

[Bob Pearson]

Almost back on topic, I've said my bit about lack of faith in ARDS, but John, what is your position on first time drivers briefings. Don't you think it should be delivered by a driver, and contain a couple of little hints to keep the driver out of trouble. I'm not suggesting he be given all the trade secrets learnt over years of competition, but each circuit has a couple of things which if you do you put yourself in peril. These would be useful safety knowledge.

[johngee]

Interesting 'spin' on 1st time driver's briefings Bob. I certainly don't give 'racing' or 'competive' advice other than to draw attention to particular 'features' of the venue, which might 'keep the driver out of trouble' (e.g. Cadwell - "it's very narrow and give each other room when lapping/being lapped" Donington - "the surface is usually felt to offer less grip than normal" Silverstone - "you need to look for flag points - they're not always in your eye line" etc. etc.) Is that what you had in mind Bob? The briefings tend to concentrate on things such as the timetable, where pit lane entrances/exits are, assembly area location, start procedure, parc ferme arrangements, chequered and control flag positions, reminder of flag signals, any specific regs for the meeting/race (pit stops/refuelling etc.) - that's not exhaustive but you get the drift? I then always allow time for questions.
There may well be a place for 'driver advice' but who would give it (?) and then you have the complication of single seaters, sports cars, saloon cars, front drive, rear drive, wet, dry which could all have a bearing on such advice. The biggest accident I 'nearly' had when racing was through taking another driver's advice (well meaning I still believe - LOL) on how to drive a particular corner.
I'm happy to take anybody's thoughts on this?

[Bob Pearson]

I must admit John, your first time drivers briefings sound much better then some I have heard. Easily missed flag points was something I had in mind, where kerbs and rumble strips are unforgiving, ligns of sight are sometimes difficult, that sort of thing.
You are right though, being a single seater driver I probably see things completely differently to a saloon driver. It comes back to the buddy thing again, it starts to look more and more the sensible way to go.

[johngee]

Thanks Bob. I must admit that I've had good feedback on my briefings - I do try and liven it up with the odd joke or anicdote to keep everybody awake! I actually think briefings in general are a very important line of communication and help to bridge the gulf between 'people like me' and the competitors. I do try and get over the culture that we're there to help and are not 'jobsworths' out to spoil their fun!!!!
BTW my advice on kerbs and rumble being unforgiving is "Well - don't drive over them then" LOL
I agree that the 'buddy' system is I believe the best but, if it were formalised, how to administer it could be a nightmare?