The top order post Schuey?

[Mr V]

Hmmm, you think Alfonso will put up with McLaren for 4 years?

[Knowlesy]

Those are some long term deals there!

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Well, Peterson wasn't better than Andretti ? And Raikkonen won't be an all time great ?

Andretti vs. Peterson in SAME CAR 1978

Qualifying : Andretti 10 Peterson 3
Poles: Andretti 7 Peterson 3
Average margin : Andretti 0.523 faster
Average Position: Andretti 2 Peterson 4.4

Races both finished: Andretti 6 Peterson 1 (Andretti was also in front 4 of the other 5 races)
Wins: Andretti 7 Peterson 1
Points: Andretti 72 Peterson 51

Fastest laps: Andretti 8 Peterson 4

This would, therefore, have to be the greatest imitation of dominating a teammate in history.

Not to mention Mario winning an Indy 500, daytona 500 Sebring 12 hr, multiple Champ Car (when they were good) and pretty well anything with wheels on it.

... but dont let these silly FACTS change your mind

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

In 4 years time

1 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari
2 Fernando Alonso McLaren
3 Heikki Kovalainen Renault
4 Robert Kubica BMW
5 Jenson Button Honda
6 Lewis Hamilton McLaren
7 Felipe Massa Ferrari
8 Sebastien Vettel BMW
9 Anthony Davidson Honda
10 Frank Montagny Renault

Getting back to the point of the thread folks and not delving too deep into whether Hill was better than Hakkinen (puleeease!) or the late great Ronnie was inferior to Mario....

Interesting thinking about the future top order Alfa fan but I would put money on Kimi lasting 2 years max in Ferrari if indeed they do sign him. Montagny will never get a Renault race drive as Regie aren't too fussed about home nationality and besides the team will probably be called Jaguar or Volvo by then if Ghosn pushes the borad into taking those brands off Ford's hands!

Button will be gone by then if he hasn't won a lot of races and i'm sorry but as much as i rate him as a driver, AD won't be in a Honda.

What I am confident of is that the follwing will be joining the others you've identified as long termers on your list:

Nelsinho Piquet
Timo Glock
Bruno Senna
Pastor Maldonado
Kobayashi san (or another Toyota favourite)
Marco Andretti
AJ Almendinger
Sean McIntosh

and possibly someone like Michael Aleshin or another half decent Russian guy

Originally Posted by Frank_White

Many, or most people probably wont agree with me but if Lewis Hamilton drives for McLaren next year I believe he will prove to be faster than Alonso!

I don't doubt he'll get Fernando's attention at some point but highly unlikely it'll be in his first season.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by deeks6

... but dont let these silly FACTS change your mind

And it won't. Looking at numbers of almost 40 years ago, doesn't change a thing, when you witnessed the guys racing. Mario is great and will ever be, but that doesn't mean that Peterson was less. A certain 7 times world champion can't steal the admiration people have for all drivers he beat along the way, and they will be remembered dearly by many than TGF ever will.
Like TGF, Mario has his fans and Peterson maybe more.

[Rex Judicata]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Andretti vs. Peterson in SAME CAR 1978

Qualifying : Andretti 10 Peterson 3
Poles: Andretti 7 Peterson 3
Average margin : Andretti 0.523 faster
Average Position: Andretti 2 Peterson 4.4

Races both finished: Andretti 6 Peterson 1 (Andretti was also in front 4 of the other 5 races)
Wins: Andretti 7 Peterson 1
Points: Andretti 72 Peterson 51

Fastest laps: Andretti 8 Peterson 4

This would, therefore, have to be the greatest imitation of dominating a teammate in history.

Not to mention Mario winning an Indy 500, daytona 500 Sebring 12 hr, multiple Champ Car (when they were good) and pretty well anything with wheels on it.

... but dont let these silly FACTS change your mind

Hey there deeks6:

I think they're just making a joke. There can be no serious discussion that Petrson was better than Mario Andretti.

[Rex Judicata]

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

In 4 years time

1 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari
2 Fernando Alonso McLaren
3 Heikki Kovalainen Renault
4 Robert Kubica BMW
5 Jenson Button Honda
6 Lewis Hamilton McLaren
7 Felipe Massa Ferrari
8 Sebastien Vettel BMW
9 Anthony Davidson Honda
10 Frank Montagny Renault

I like your list, but in four years - that would be 2010 - I think at least half of the names will be unknown to us today. In four to five years, we'll be hearing talking about retirement for Button, Kimi, Alonso, Massa, and a few others. If 1 year is 7 years in dog years, a year of F1 must at least match the dog.

[jab]

Are you sure they'll be retiring? Alonso and Massa will be 29, Kimi and Button will be 30

[Rex Judicata]

Originally Posted by jab

Are you sure they'll be retiring? Alonso and Massa will be 29, Kimi and Button will be 30

jab, it's only my guess. Why do I think this could happen? F1 is becomming a younger sport - drivers appear who are not even 21 years old. I suspect that trend will continue, so the relative age of the older drivers will be greater. We already think of DC and MS as the old men and they are only in their mid-thirties. Given the young-driver trend, and late twenties/early thirties could become old.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Those are some long term deals there!

And how can he be so sure about Jenson!

[VilleneuveTracy]

Good point about Heidfeld and Webber. They have never been in a winning car but always do well with what they have. Yet they are written off as "division two" drivers. How can we be certain they couldn't produce results if they had a good car? Raikkonen has 9 wins since 2002 and has had a winning car each year except this one. Are we sure that Webber and Heidfeld would have won, 4 or 5 races during that period?

The JV-Massa comparison should raise some questions about the top drivers in "division two", because by extension it also brings Heidfeld, Webber into the picture since they are basically on par with JV-Massa right now. Look at how close Massa has been to MS, arguably still the best driver in F1. Since Ferrari has the best car (US gp IMO) he has scored 34 points to MS's 37. Sure, MS, is still a cut above Massa but let's presume that MS remains head and shoulders above the rest. If that is the case it is possible that Massa, and by extension, Villeneuve, Heidfeld, and Webber are right there underneath MS, perhaps in the same group as Alonso and Raikkonen. This is a stretch, of course but I am surprised at how people don't consider this possibility. If MS is still the best, or at least much better than anyone other than Alonso, then it is entirely possible that Massa, Heidfeld, Webber, Villeneuve, and perhaps Button (based on him vs. Rubens) are right there in the next group after MS.

I am not advocating this but this is food for thought. We will likely get an answer next year when Massa faces Raikkonen at Ferrari. Webber vs. DC will also give us some indication of how Webber compares to Raikkonen, although the DC of 2007 should be slower than the DC of 2003 and 2004 although one could make a strong argument that DC has driven better at RBR than in his last years at McLaren.

Personally, I think Alonso and MS are at the top right now but I am not sure about Raikkonen being on par with them and far ahead of Webber, Heidfeld, Massa, JV, and Button. Let's not forget the quality of equipment these drivers have had. Webber, Button, Massa, and Heidfeld, despite not spending years in a top 3 car, have as many WDC's as Raikkonen. And that other guy has one more WDC than Raikkonen and more wins despite having a winning car for much less time.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by VilleneuveTracy

Good point about Heidfeld and Webber. They have never been in a winning car but always do well with what they have. Yet they are written off as "division two" drivers. How can we be certain they couldn't produce results if they had a good car? Raikkonen has 9 wins since 2002 and has had a winning car each year except this one. Are we sure that Webber and Heidfeld would have won, 4 or 5 races during that period?

The JV-Massa comparison should raise some questions about the top drivers in "division two", because by extension it also brings Heidfeld, Webber into the picture since they are basically on par with JV-Massa right now. Look at how close Massa has been to MS, arguably still the best driver in F1. Since Ferrari has the best car (US gp IMO) he has scored 34 points to MS's 37. Sure, MS, is still a cut above Massa but let's presume that MS remains head and shoulders above the rest. If that is the case it is possible that Massa, and by extension, Villeneuve, Heidfeld, and Webber are right there underneath MS, perhaps in the same group as Alonso and Raikkonen. This is a stretch, of course but I am surprised at how people don't consider this possibility. If MS is still the best, or at least much better than anyone other than Alonso, then it is entirely possible that Massa, Heidfeld, Webber, Villeneuve, and perhaps Button (based on him vs. Rubens) are right there in the next group after MS.

I am not advocating this but this is food for thought. We will likely get an answer next year when Massa faces Raikkonen at Ferrari. Webber vs. DC will also give us some indication of how Webber compares to Raikkonen, although the DC of 2007 should be slower than the DC of 2003 and 2004 although one could make a strong argument that DC has driven better at RBR than in his last years at McLaren.

Personally, I think Alonso and MS are at the top right now but I am not sure about Raikkonen being on par with them and far ahead of Webber, Heidfeld, Massa, JV, and Button. Let's not forget the quality of equipment these drivers have had. Webber, Button, Massa, and Heidfeld, despite not spending years in a top 3 car, have as many WDC's as Raikkonen. And that other guy has one more WDC than Raikkonen and more wins despite having a winning car for much less time.

Theres far too many assumptions to single out there

But in general IMO Alonso hasnt reached his peak and MS is past his, yet theyre still fairly equally matched but still able to have a good weekend over the other.

The Webber - DC - Raikonnen assumption is interesting, but i think theres been too much time since DC and Raikonnen last raced together to still accurately judge. Like MS being past his peak (IMO) Coulthard would be in a similar situation, so if Webber outperforms him in 2007 like Raikonnen did 2002-2004, that would still put Webber on a lower peg to Raikonnen in many eyes.

[Rex Judicata]

Originally Posted by VilleneuveTracy

Good point about Heidfeld and Webber. They have never been in a winning car but always do well with what they have. Yet they are written off as "division two" drivers. How can we be certain they couldn't produce results if they had a good car? Raikkonen has 9 wins since 2002 and has had a winning car each year except this one. Are we sure that Webber and Heidfeld would have won, 4 or 5 races during that period?

Good analysis, VilleneuveTracy! Somehow, Kimi has retained his "winner" reputation despite failing to win a Championship. 9 race wins is not shabby, but it's no title. We've certainly seen some dramatic kablammos, to use Hobbes's term, as well as some major errors. The media often put this down to Kimi having bad luck, but what, after all, is luck? When he flat spotted his RF tire and decided to continue - was that bad luck - or bad judgment? Some people are said to make their own luck; why can't Kimi?

[VilleneuveTracy]

think theres been too much time since DC and Raikonnen last raced together to still accurately judge. Like MS being past his peak (IMO) Coulthard would be in a similar situation, so if Webber outperforms him in 2007 like Raikonnen did 2002-2004, that would still put Webber on a lower peg to Raikonnen in many eyes.

I agree, but what if Webber annihilates DC? I hope Webber gets a second look from people if he does that.

But in general IMO Alonso hasnt reached his peak and MS is past his, yet theyre still fairly equally matched but still able to have a good weekend over the other.

I agree. I wonder how the rest of the field stacks up after MS and Alonso, though. How big of a gap is there to the rest? Massa suggests it isn't as huge as believed.

Thanks, RJ.

His bad luck is so frequent you have to believe it is likely that he is too hard on his cars. How often did DC retire at McLaren, for instance? 9 wins is very good but it is not the sign of a future legend. 9 wins in a winning car from 2002-2005? Others have done as much or even more despite having a good car for a much shorter time and these drivers are not considered legends and are even considered medicore by some.

In the 2005 Monaco grand prix Raikkonen beat Heidfeld by 14 seconds and Webber by 18 seconds. What would the result have been if one of the two then-Williams drivers were in the McLaren and Raikkonen was in the Williams? Can we be sure that there would have been a huge difference, that Raikkonen would have won or had the Williams on the McLaren's gearbox?

Webber has brought the Williams to the front several times this year, running well ahead of Nico in some of these races. He qualified a Jaguar on the front row. What could he do in a McLaren?

We should remember that when the Williams was competitive last year Webber and Heidfeld did well. Car performance is used to explain Raikkonen not having won a WDC and having "only" 9 wins since 2002 but the car should also be factored in when assessing Heidfeld, Webber, and others.

Remember the thread from last year rating the drivers halfway through the season? I will try to dig that up to see where Massa was ranked. I think he was considered a "division 3" driver by some last year. Now he has a strong car and he has outscored Alonso 34-24 since Indy, and has scored only 3 less points than MS (for the record, Raikkonen has 10 points during that period, Heidfeld 7, Button 20, PDLR 14, and Webber 0). I think Massa is the prime example of how drivers outside the MS, FA, KR trio are underrated and written off.

[FPV GTHO]

I think the difference though is last year and this year alike, Williams have been their most competitive at races where it's said car advantage doesnt mean much. Switching Raikonnen into the FW27 or FW28 may still have seen him at the pointy end at Monaco,

[VilleneuveTracy]

I have no doubt Raikkonen would have been on the podium in the Williams at Monaco but I am not sure he would have done better than Heidfeld and Webber did.

[FPV GTHO]

Well certainly theres a group of people who feel Heidfeld deserved the McLaren seat more than Kimi did, so there is some history already between those 2 particular drivers.

[Mr V]

But Kimi got the gig because of how close to Nick he got, given that it was his rookie season.

[Rex Judicata]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Well certainly theres a group of people who feel Heidfeld deserved the McLaren seat more than Kimi did, so there is some history already between those 2 particular drivers.

That group includes Nick - seems it took him quite a while to get over being passed over.

[deejay]

Kimi's record against Montoya and Coulthard says enough. Comfortably dispatching with both highly rated teammates.

When he's had the car to win he has. Since he's been at Mclaren 2005 is the only year it's arguable that they had a genuine championship winning car - basically the Renault proved to be better throughout the year though when consistency counts for so much these days.

A bit of an ironic turnaround from 2003 when the points system meant Kimi's consistency actually kept him in the hunt - despite an inferior car.

One flat-spotted tyre (especially under last years regulations) does not an overrated driver make.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by deejay

Since he's been at Mclaren 2005 is the only year it's arguable that they had a genuine championship winning car

I guess when he lost by 2 points in 2003 it was only a race winning car

[deejay]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I guess when he lost by 2 points in 2003 it was only a race winning car

Yeah, well, maybe I'm stretching a bit there, but my point was that the Mclaren was probably only the 3rd quickest car that year, so that he got so close to the title was a massive positive for Kimi. Look where DC was in the same car.

[AstroBoy]

Originally Posted by av8rirl

I think Webber is over-rated. What has he ever really won? The FF festival 10 years ago, one F3 win and one F3000 win. Thats about it really!

It's doesn't really matter what has happeneed in the lower categories once you make it to F1.

Formula One is so much higher than everything else, it just depends on how the driver copes with the new environment.

Look at how HHF performed against MS when they were in sportscars.... But F1 was a TOTALLY different story.

The best way to judge drivers is against their team-mates. Atleast take into account the quality of the equipment they are in.

[Knowlesy]

The thing is deejay, Kimi is very much in the comfort zone at McLaren with Ron right behind him and all that. He is the archetypal modern McLaren driver.

How will he do outside the comfort zone at, say, Ferrari with a car that is the absolute opposite of a McLaren? I'm intrigued to find out.

[deejay]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

The thing is deejay, Kimi is very much in the comfort zone at McLaren with Ron right behind him and all that. He is the archetypal modern McLaren driver.

How will he do outside the comfort zone at, say, Ferrari with a car that is the absolute opposite of a McLaren? I'm intrigued to find out.

Why, cause he's a Finn? This "archetypal modern McLaren driver" thing is overstated IMO. Having the team behind him is hardly a reason to doubt him. Good drivers tend to have the team behind them, especially when they've shown the loyality in the face of adversity that Kimi has.

This year has been a bit different - the relationship between Kimi and Mclaren has seemed indifferent at best - and yet he's still much faster than both guys who have driven the other Mclaren.

I don't see him having a problem with "comfort" at Ferrari if he goes. The team that have tried so hard to get him are hardly going to treat him like dirt once he gets there. Ferrari have turned into the ultimate example of team unity - much more so than Mclaren.