Peugeot 2010-2011 (Temporarily Closed)

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm betting that, for now at least, it's a straight 4 gasoline engine, the single exhaust pipe points that direction. But that could be a smokescreen to, as well as the fact that the 90X t-car looks a lot like the 908--Audi has done the same with their road cars by fitting older bodywork on them before their public launch. Peugeot may be doing the same here.

Either way, I think--and Peugeot in their PR admits it--that were far from the final product.

There's no proof there's only one exhaust. The 3/4 rear view seems to not be at the angle in which you could see the right hand bank exhaust given how far up on the bodywork the left hand exhaust is. And both left and right wing mounts have silver shielding for exhaust gasses...

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Félix

Definitely a 908 tub and front aero package. Some change to the wheel pod extension and the back of the car is completely new. The real 90X part on the car is the gearbox, and attached to the back of that gearbox is a new rear wing. That new bellhousing-gearbox is needed for a new engine but also to add/experiment with an electric motor. Sidepods are lower because 500-550 hp needs less cooling than 700, and they have improved the flow over the rear deck by downsizing stuff behind the tub.

What makes you thing that is only 500-550 hp... which by the way its not the most relevant aspect in the equation. Power is only a matter of increasing the ability of the engine to rev higher under a certain torque output...(diesels are very lame yet in this... with only up to 6k RPM, virtue of only 4 years in development compared with the 100+ of petrol)

Torque is the "force" of the engine and that is the most important. If your initial torque is high, than everything will be better. Put a F1 750hp on 18 wheeler, which is as usual close to 500hp... and the F1 engine could barely put the truck in motion... even in very high reduction gears...

In WTCC the story was the same. SEAT with a 4 cylinder 2l diesel engine would had beat dead the obsolete BMWs and Chevrolets if it weren't for FIA changing rules all the time.. so a smaller engine also doesn't mean things are proportionally worst, because there are always ways to increase torque by increasing relative engine pressures and efficiency inside the cylinders, and increase power by reducing parasitic loads... which in a small engine its even easier to do than in a bigger one.

Originally Posted by Félix

Peugeot don't even know whether the 90X will be hybrid or not, and they are even open to running cars of both types at LM if they feel that's better (publicity on one side, chances of victory on the other?). The roof intake is certainly there to cool something new behind the engine; maybe a KERS system. It looks oversized and its legality could be questionable (size, distance to top) but it doesn't look temporary either since it's well finished/wrapped in reflective silver. The two snorkels could be for brakes only or left there as a decoy; but if they are for turbos, then there are two and that rules out the atmospheric engine option. A 2-liter I4 derived from the WRC engine always seemed possible to me, but I guess they comissioned a new smaller diesel.

The roof intake is fairly large at the nozzle, and it enlarges at the base entering the engine compartment, denoting "perhaps" that might be more that 1 air derivation into the engine compartment... so its quite possible that larger intercoolers and engine intake (2 turbos ?) is feed by this.

With last minute change from last draft in the fuel tanks capacity(reduce) i don't believe that neither Audi or Peugeot will go for a V8( the max).. but a V6 its quite possible, and since ACO in its stupid wisdom has limited the possibility of energy release to too low levels, it might be that the "energy recuperation" thing is only to drive the engine auxiliaries (gas,oil,water... whatever... pumps...) and reduce so parasitic loads, permitting the engine to rev higher and gain more power (hp)( which could be MUCH indeed for the surprise of many in this forum)..

SO in case of a V6 its quite possible that no kers or other motoring tech will appear, and Peugeot and Audi will not be hybrids then, energy recuperation is for electric generation to drive the auxiliaries... more so because if the point is to gain MUCH power by reducing drastically parasitic loads, then a kers introduces parasitic loads...

Kers by mechanical means should deserve a new name...TSHTE... the stupidest hybrid tech ever...
Ok it was a clever trick in porshe to dispense with huge weight batteries packs... only because ACO refrains like a glowing carbon ceramic disk break the release of energy that would mandate bigger electric motors with back-EMF recovery and why not hub wheel motors of the same for 4WD... that could function in very smart 2+2 configurations ( 2 generating elect + 2 driving in normal, 4 driving in high acceleration; 4 generating elect upon breaking).. this would reduce batteries packs necessity to a minimal

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-5594.html
The feeling of the article author that the engine sounds less " aggressive" more muffled in this test, could there be an indication that there are not only a less cylinder engine but also exhaust gas pressure turbines( of some kind) in the system for electric generation(second phase "turbos")(digress!) ??

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Laurent

It's not a 908 front cover.

On this image, you can clearly see that there is not anymore this sort of chamfer on each side of the nose, there was on 908. Just to make sure, look at the "Total" sticker and you will see that there is less blue on each side of it on 90X than on 908.

Actually the all nose seems a little narrower.. which shouldn't be aesthetic.. better aerodynamics perhaps... and also shouldn't be to much of an hurdle and cost to pass in crash test homologation.

[deggis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhVSjhq8Ia8

!!!

(Notice that only the two fly bys are from this week's test... rest of the video is from the spring test)

I guess this confirms it's a diesel.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

The fin will not prevent rollovers.

Cars will still get airborne with this fin attached and when they do and the car gets even slightly sideways in the air that fin is going to hit the air like a sail and with the fin producing that much drag above the COG the car will backflip.

There would be a much better solution that is to augment the minimal weight of the cars to 985Kg... and reduce the fins to a minimal... that would make then harder to take off for sure... but of course the option for more and more like motorbike engines would have to be reverted, specially for petrol engines that would not have the torque to push as efficiently for such higher loads...

But he have to stand in awe how politics to defend established interests goes...

Nowadays i prefer very much more MotoGP than F1, which is nothing but very ugly very noisy very uninteresting moto 4 GPs(superbikes on 4 wheels GP) with very few passes on track .. actually i disconnected from following F1 by quite a lot.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by JAG

Isn't there a theory the focus of 2011 cars will be less drag due to the power reduction.

That being the case how much of the 908's aero can be carried over seeing as they've had an excess of power compared to the opposition and been able to run more downforce.

NO!

What they had is much more torque ('force'), permitting them to run with more down force yet accelerate much faster than an equally powered Aston Martin (700+hp).. or even more so because of that(down force).

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Yep that would be tricky. Didn't realise they were quite so thin.

Thin but they have to be integrally strong or the pretended effect will be minimized...

wonder if in this accident http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNkySVNNpog Ortelli's car had a fin and it had struck the R10, it would had cut the car and the pilot in half like a knife !

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by deggis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhVSjhq8Ia8

!!!

(Notice that only the two fly bys are from this week's test... rest of the video is from the spring test)

I guess this confirms it's a diesel.

Why are you sad ???

They want to win, their business is promotion by winning, not selling good but cheap obsolete engines to privateers... and they don't have top sports cars on petrol engines for commercial purposes and so promote it in LMS... so winning is the only option left for Peugeot...

Diesel ? ... what is the surprise ?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by hcl123

Why are you sad ???

If both of the two most important manufacturers involved in the sport will continue to use diesel then the regulations will continue to make mockery of petrol engines for the next three(?) years and that's sad. Staus quo.

Diesel ? ... what is the surprise ?

It's not a surprise but many people were ready to bet on petrol choice based on the spy photos...

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by deggis

If two of the most important manufacturers involved in the sport continue to use diesel the regulations will continue to make mockery of petrol engines for the next three(?) years and that's sad. Staus quo.

Can't understand this !!!

The regulations have been doing the possible and the impossible to lift petrol engines to near the level of diesel... OH! better said downgrade Diesel engines to the level of petrol ...

Have you have ever "seen" any other sport where rules are changed in the middle of a season to penalize one particular group of contenders... and more than 1 time in the same season... and still be called a sport.. without tremendous public outrages ???

PETROL IS OBSOLETE... its time for you to face it.
Those differences in efficiency that everywhere is well knowned from a long time, petrol up to 25%, diesel up to 35% and possibly more in Carnot cycle... ITS NOT SEMANTICS... its not noise that is indicative of power potential its efficiency... and 10% or more has been quite an hard ball for regulations to overcome.

There aren't more contenders with diesel because of their market positions of the parts involved. But if Mercedes which has a very large commercial offering based on diesel... and also Toyota... would ever return to Le Mans, you can bet a high sum that they will came back on diesel

Not that petrol is left with no applications in motorsport, example in motorbikes where the weight of the moving masses is very low, petrol is an excellent choice because it doesn't need that higher torque to outstand...

In every motor sport where the moving masses gets close to 1 ton.. its clearly that PETROL IS OBSOLETE.

Originally Posted by deggis

It's not a surprise but many people were ready to bet on petrol choice based on the spy photos...

Those who follow ear say, moods and established propaganda and environments are SHEEPLE.

Motorsport is a business... and Peugeot objective is business oriented, and the only profit they can ever take from this large investments is by winning... only participating as a form of promotion is not an option for Peugeot, due to its market position and products.... profit is the motive, and they can only have it by winning, and so if they have to go for diesel to have higher orders of chances they will go, even if every "afficionato" hates diesel...

( why do you thing they busted 3 cars in order to try to win this year at Le Mans... when they could have settled and all 3 cars finish the race... the 908 broke because its bad ??.. no they broke because they pushed the cars well beyond limits because the only thing that mattered was the victory)

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by deggis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhVSjhq8Ia8

!!!

(Notice that only the two fly bys are from this week's test... rest of the video is from the spring test)

I guess this confirms it's a diesel.

Deggis, sadly this is not a video of 90X, it is all 908 so from an earlier test.

If you stop the video at 4 and 15 seconds you see no fin, just 908.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by hcl123

The regulations have been doing the possible and the impossible to lift petrol engines to near the level of diesel... OH! better said downgrade Diesel engines to the level of petrol ...

Thread after thread you continue to be blind to the massive advantage that was given in the original 2006 regulations.

Have you have ever "seen" any other sport where rules are changed in the middle of a season to penalize one particular group of contenders... and more than 1 time in the same season... and still be called a sport.. without tremendous public outrages ???

Have you ever seen a sport where Team A is allowed couple of more players on the field compared to Team B because Team A comes from a bigger city?

PETROL IS OBSOLETE... its time for you to face it.
Those differences in efficiency that everywhere is well knowned from a long time, petrol up to 25%, diesel up to 35% and possibly more in Carnot cycle... ITS NOT SEMANTICS... its not noise that is indicative of power potential its efficiency... and 10% or more has been quite an hard ball for regulations to overcome.

Please leave road car applications out of this.

There aren't more contenders with diesel because of their market positions of the parts involved. But if Mercedes which has a very large commercial offering based on diesel... and also Toyota... would ever return to Le Mans, you can bet a high sum that they will came back on diesel

If status quo remains (what comes to the regulations), that would be only logical since they surely can make their conclusions from the rulebook.

Those who follow ear say, moods and established propaganda and environments are SHEEPLE.

Motorsport is a business... and Peugeot objective is business oriented, and the only profit they can ever take from this large investments is by winning... only participating as a form of promotion is not an option for Peugeot, due to its market position and products.... profit is the motive, and they can only have it by winning, and so if they have to go for diesel to have higher orders of chances they will go, even if every "afficionato" hates diesel...

( why do you thing they busted 3 cars in order to try to win this year at Le Mans... when they could have settled and all 3 cars finish the race... the 908 broke because its bad ??.. no they broke because they pushed the cars well beyond limits because the only thing that mattered was the victory)

I'm not sure what you expect me to reply here. I only mentioned Autosport's spy photo...

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

Deggis, sadly this is not a video of 90X, it is all 908 so from an earlier test.

If you stop the video at 4 and 15 seconds you see no fin, just 908.

Oops... I guess the water spray (matches the Autosport spy photo, so it could be from this week's test if they brought the 908 too - actually the uploader's video description indicates so) distracted from noticing the lack of fin.

[Victor_RO]

Also, the noise is definitely 908, the 2010 engine actually makes a certain amount of noise and it's a rather unique/recognizable sound.

[knighty]

[QUOTE=hcl123;2782789]Can't understand this !!!
PETROL IS OBSOLETE... its time for you to face it.


hold on just a minute!!!......the only reason audi and pug used the diesel regs is because they were bent.......as many of you will know I work in the race and road car powertrain engine design business for 11 years now, for the last 3 years in a hybrid environment......let me assure you that if anything is dying its diesel, the cost to fix the excessive nox and particulate emissions is now becoming excessive for the end customer the net result being that diesel engines are now VERY expensive..........and gasoline fuelled engines are therefore making a big comeback, gasoline is the future from where I'm sitting and the projects I'm working on........by my sums the 2011 diesel regulations are still bent, so the manufacturers will probably go that way for a performance advantage of about 30% more torque.........but it would be nice to see pug go the 4 pot gasoline route as it will really differentiate them from Audi.

[Tom908V12]

But the general shape could be kept for 2011

[johntt]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm betting that, for now at least, it's a straight 4 gasoline engine, the single exhaust pipe points that direction. But that could be a smokescreen to, as well as the fact that the 90X t-car looks a lot like the 908--Audi has done the same with their road cars by fitting older bodywork on them before their public launch. Peugeot may be doing the same here.

Either way, I think--and Peugeot in their PR admits it--that were far from the final product.

According to the Autosport report on the matter, its the new drivetrain in the old chassis.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by johntt

According to the Autosport report on the matter, its the new drivetrain in the old chassis.

That's not what I understood from the articles. I saw no indication from them as to whether the chassis was new, or old. Concensus seems to be that this was a new car, with Peugeot sources appearing to confirm that.

[Lola T70]

Neither did I and what I saw with a new engine sized at it appears it would be a new chassis.

[Lola T70]

[QUOTE=knighty;2782819]

Originally Posted by hcl123

but it would be nice to see pug go the 4 pot gasoline route as it will really differentiate them from Audi.

Do you know that Audi is staying with diesel?

[Bentley03]

Guys, can we please keep the petrol vs diesel balance of performance argument out of this thread and stick to discussing Peugeot 2010-2011. I understand that discussion has some relevance to Peugeot's decision making, but frankly, it's been discussed to death on here, has bored the majority of forum members senseless, and only really becomes relevant again when the new season kicks off at Sebring next March. Roll on March......

[cdsvg]

Turbocharged Bentley with roof intake:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...zvLvCOD7r767pw

I cant really figure out what the point is though, you need contorted ducting without any obvious advantage over the twin snorkels.

[gucom]

maybe the air pressure over the roof is higher than where the snorkels are located?

[Senna-F1God]

Originally Posted by gucom

maybe the air pressure over the roof is higher than where the snorkels are located?

Exactly.

For those of you that hope for a brand new car:





This is it. Pug´s budget is what it is, and the powertrain-engine dept´s are gonna eat most of it.

You can see all minor modifications to the chassis: in particular the tighted nose cone and somewhat sculpted sideponts.

You just have to use the brain: why make detailed modifications to an interim car?

Actually Peugeot Sport said this is the 90X, but that the engine config won´t be the definitive. And nope it´s not petrol but a V8 HDI DIESEL.

[The Badger]

Wouldnt bother me in the least if it stayed like that , apart from that hideous centre wing .

Its still a diesel though , shame .