[WEC] Toyota Hypercar Discussion

[TF110]

I think the jokers need to be used because of the competition not staying still. If they make a car that's good enough, that might be able to stay competitive but will rely on bop like the old 9x8. Whereas an upgraded car will be there regardless of the bop.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think the jokers need to be used because of the competition not staying still. If they make a car that's good enough, that might be able to stay competitive but will rely on bop like the old 9x8. Whereas an upgraded car will be there regardless of the bop.

I suspect that Toyota would try and increase aero efficiency if there are any changes to come. This is proving to be something that the ACO can't quite nerf with the Ferrari. I don't think any of the manufacturers anticipated the Ferrari.

[veeten]

Wonder how the team will suffice with Toyota making their return to F1 with Haas in '26. Will they hand it over to a team they know and trust, or will they maintain while most of them make the shift to their new endeavor during next year.

Should be interesting, either way...

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by veeten

Wonder how the team will suffice with Toyota making their return to F1 with Haas in '26. Will they hand it over to a team they know and trust, or will they maintain while most of them make the shift to their new endeavor during next year.

Should be interesting, either way...

Well it's rumored to be more like Alfa with Sauber and Infiniti with Red Bull and MAYBE some parts modeling but not a full engine swap and manufacturer involvement level of spend

[TF110]

Toyota has enough money to do both. IF they want to. I think it'll be just a small sponsorship and have Miyata in the Haas car. They'll get better access to the wind tunnel in Cologne. I doubt it goes full on and they cancel the factory Hypercar. Remember, according to them, it's too complicated to sell to customers, so factory or factory supported. I see little difference.

[flatlandsman]

I would be imagine it is a badging marketing deal, if they are planning on building engines that is a whole new level, but nothing like making a whole car.#

They have achieved a lot in WEC but sadly often against meagre opposition, against the best they were often found wanting and at times they are now. But still the standard.

I guess the allure of the fans watching is why so many companies once allied to WEC are now wanting tog et into F1, it used to be the preserve of elite brands like ferrari, but now it seems everyone wnats a pice of pie.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I would be imagine it is a badging marketing deal, if they are planning on building engines that is a whole new level, but nothing like making a whole car.#

They have achieved a lot in WEC but sadly often against meagre opposition, against the best they were often found wanting and at times they are now. But still the standard.

I guess the allure of the fans watching is why so many companies once allied to WEC are now wanting tog et into F1, it used to be the preserve of elite brands like ferrari, but now it seems everyone wnats a pice of pie.

2014 WEC Champions vs Porsche & Audi. 2023 WEC Champions vs the current grid (winning every race except Le Mans no less) and make no mistake, they came out swinging in 2012 and immediately brought the fight to Audi and were competitive every season bar 2015. Get a grip please.

[flatlandsman]

I would suggest consistently failing for a number of years against good opposition and also failing at the last hurdle at the only race that matters was not a success in comparison TO Audi and Porsche who won almost instantly. I think the fact that they have been soundly beaten by Ferrari at LM twice and are hounded by others has scared the bejesus out of them!! They won it ONCE against proper opposition, that my man is not a GRIP

And please mind your tonel it really is not necessary.

[tomcug]

Sometimes luck isn't with you. In 2016 they were about to win, got robbed by failure. This year they should have won too if not for joke race control decisions in Ferrari's favor.

[Articus]

Iirc, in a previous season (2014 or 2015?) they were also the pace setter at Le Mans, but one of the cars retired due to an ACO/FIA data logger catching fire and burning the electrical loom. The other car retired when they had a puncture and the driver drove too quickly back to the pits and destroyed the gearbox and hydraulics.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I think the fact that they have been soundly beaten by Ferrari at LM twice and are hounded by others has scared the bejesus out of them!!

Soundly beaten? They had the BOP stacked against them in 2023. 1 car also was taken out by a GT car that year. This year one of their race contenders in the last hours was spun out by a Ferrari. The other one had a reserve driver filling in because of a pre-race cycling accident.

[Adam43]

It’s a simplistic trope.

Not least because the comparison is against the best manufacturer at Le Mans ever that had an amazing testing program leading up to entry and the second best who had been continually at it for 12 years before this world championship came about.

They’ve had howlers. They’ve had bad luck. They’ve had easy wins (like those others in their history). And they’ve had great success. They’ve been it all the way in the championship.

Just purely statistically at their wins it is pretty good. You have factor in that not every team can win every race.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I would suggest consistently failing for a number of years against good opposition and also failing at the last hurdle at the only race that matters was not a success in comparison TO Audi and Porsche who won almost instantly. I think the fact that they have been soundly beaten by Ferrari at LM twice and are hounded by others has scared the bejesus out of them!! They won it ONCE against proper opposition, that my man is not a GRIP

And please mind your tonel it really is not necessary.

I think my tone is just fine thanks.



I don't use WEC and LeMans interchangeably. If you want to consider just Le Mans fine.



As others have mentioned, we can talk about 2014 when an FIA part ended the Pole sitting #7 car's race which had led for 209? of 379 laps.


We can talk about after destroying the qualifying and race lap record in 2017 when Porsche had no answer for their pace that it was a competitor mistaken for a marshal that ultimately cause the retirement of the #7 car.


Not even going to mention 2016 (that's the most Le Mans moment ever isn't it?), 2023 (with the borderline outside the scope of regulations BoP change) or this year, 2024 (let's just..... not).




It's an extremely tired discussion, why is it so hard to give respect where it surely has been earned? Not even a single flower for single handedly carrying the WEC on it's back into this current Golden era that we are enjoying when the other Juggernauts turned tail and ran? Tough crowd.

[chernaudi]

And one can argue that some of Porsche's wins and several of the Audi R8 wins and the first R10 win came against feeble opposition (Porsche initially went up against Ferrari, who couldn't do both F1 and sportscar in top flight mode at the same time back then, and Audi went up against mostly privateer teams until Peugeot showed up in 2007). However, you can only race against who shows up, and in fairness the old R8 was built to take on the likes of BMW, Toyota and Mercedes-Benz (all of whom went to "greener pastures" following 1999) and Audi always went at doing what they did as if they were racing factory teams, anticipating/hoping that they'd show up.


Audi and Porsche also did the same as Toyota did from '18-'20 while the WEC and LM was finding it's footing after VAG pulled the plug on the Audi Sport and Porsche Motorsport LMP1 programs. In the case of Audi, it was propping up Le Mans and the ALMS during the early and mid 2000s until Peugeot and the factory backed LMP2 brigade showed up. Porsche did the same for the early years of Group C as well.

Throughout history, Le Mans has often featured one or maybe two factory teams racing at one time. Periods like late Group C, the late '90s and even now are, by comparison, statistical anomalies. Like all competitions, you can only do battle against whoever shows up. Audi, Porsche and Toyota at various times could've left, but stuck things out until things improved.


I, like others, am getting a bit tired of having to explain the feast and famine nature of factory involvement at Le Mans. It'd be by default (as well as IMSA and the WEC) would be better if NASCAR and F1 just died away overnight, but I don't see either one happening.

[Matador]

Toyota to race hydrogen car alongside existing LMH in 2028 WEC

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Matador

Toyota to race hydrogen car alongside existing LMH in 2028 WEC

This what you were linking to? https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-wec/10638233/

[Matador]

Originally Posted by TF110

This what you were linking to? https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-wec/10638233/

Yes, at least the autosport version of it anyway. Not sure why the url got mixed up.

[TF110]

I wonder what the regulations will even be? My guess is they'll be powerful cars but heavier than the current hypercars. Which will be a shame because GT3's just might be faster in the slow turns.

[Akrapovic]

I'm excited for this car. Hydrogen combustion means we might keep the noise, the gears and everything else that adds personality.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm excited for this car. Hydrogen combustion means we might keep the noise, the gears and everything else that adds personality.

That is something that Akio Toyoda mentions when speaking about hydrogen combustion. I appreciate that he has the combustion engine in mind for the future and Toyota is one company that has held off on pushing all-electric.

As far as the hydrogen prototype, it looks like the rules are going to allow for a central seating position for packaging reasons. So the slim cockpit on the concept car is explained by that. You also see that central seating on the Mission H24.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by TF110

That is something that Akio Toyoda mentions when speaking about hydrogen combustion. I appreciate that he has the combustion engine in mind for the future and Toyota is one company that has held off on pushing all-electric.

As far as the hydrogen prototype, it looks like the rules are going to allow for a central seating position for packaging reasons. So the slim cockpit on the concept car is explained by that. You also see that central seating on the Mission H24.

I think Toyota would have pursued a slimmer cockpit with the GR010 if the regulations allowen when it was developed (see how much slimmer the 499P is)

[Adam43]

When did those regs change? What were they? I don’t recall.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Adam43

When did those regs change? What were they? I don’t recall.

I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly there was some waffling about it (along with weight and power) when Aston Martin was originally set to enter at the beginning of the Hypercar ruleset with a roadcar based Hypercar. I stand to be corrected though.

[flatlandsman]

Just watching some of the late night stuff from LM

Compared to other teams, Toyota at stops did obsess rather a lot about the front lip splitter, it was cleaned very thoroughly every stop I note, fascinated to know why on that car, other teams just seem to clean inside to remove rubber etc.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Matador

I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly there was some waffling about it (along with weight and power) when Aston Martin was originally set to enter at the beginning of the Hypercar ruleset with a roadcar based Hypercar. I stand to be corrected though.

I always thought that too. Maybe they were building the car to a certain spec before the rules changed a little? Idk