[WEC] Porsche GTP / Hypercar: factory and customer

[chernaudi]

Well I'd bet that Audi Sport made their decision to pull out of the WEC well in advance of when they announced it. Maybe winning LM or being in serious contention for the manufacturers' title last year might have seen the program out until it's original proposed end this season. But that's a question without a solid answer. But it seems that decision when it was made revolved around returns on investment as much as Porsche's decision might (success vs dollars spent in the case of Audi).

I'm saying don't be surprised if the decision for Porsche to leave was in actuality made well in advance of when its announced. If they stay, fine, things will be golden for one more year at least. If they don't, I won't be one bit surprised. Not to mention that Marcus Shruig, the guy who "broke" this story with an opinion article, has been right in recent times for a guy who writes opinion/editorial articles for Motorsport Akutell/Auto Motor und Sport. He predicted Nissan's pull out, and Audi Sport's pull out. And he was pretty much right both times.

And unfortunately, I'm used to more bad news than good coming out of auto racing in recent years. Promised programs that never materialize or fade away almost overnight, rules packages that fail to deliver, teams going broke (or being run by crooks), and more rumors of negative stuff coming true than positive ones.

Would it be nice if Porsche could at least offer up 919s to privateers? Absolutely. But Porsche kinda got burned with the RS Spyder program due to not recouping the cost to the extent they hoped (though Porsche kinda priced themselves out of the market with a LMP2 car that was at the time more expensive than a privateer spec LMP1). And even if you take the hybrid system out of the 919, it would probably be as difficult for a privateer team to run as running an Audi R10 or hybridless Audi R18 (2011 or the 2012 "Ultra"). Personally, I think the era of running customer spec factory backed cars pretty much went bye bye in the top class when the Audi R8 went out of the picture. That car was easy to service and repair, had excellent performance and support, and was basically almost impossible to kill.

But that was a different time and place in history, and modern LMP1s are much more complex, especially at the factory backed car level. Not to mention expensive. The RS Spyder was a LMP2 car that at the time retailed for 1.5 million USD. Expensive for a LMP2 car, but that's probably a ton cheaper than even a 919 with no hybrid system.

Irrespective of if Porsche stay or go, the reasons supporting an exit are well known. And I'm to the point of posing the question: We know the gist of the 2020 regs, and though stuff might change, we know the basics. Why run an old car just to fill in the time when it's probably better to focus on the coming regs, seeing also as the current regs have played themselves out and there's no prospect of a customer car deal?

And even though it was random when they did it (you usually don't cancel a program when you're in the middle of a test session that you flew from France to Florida to do), I don't think we should've been surprised that Peugeot pulled the plug on their LMP1 program. IMO, on surprising thing was the randomness of the timing, but probably not the decision itself.

[gert]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Why run an old car just to fill in the time when it's probably better to focus on the coming regs, seeing also as the current regs have played themselves out and there's no prospect of a customer car deal?

It's not like the current old car is uncompetitive.

Why keep the programme together? If you want to be there in 2020 :
* keep the staff busy
* keep the drivers busy
* keep both categories under contract

Sure, they can move some of them (staff an drivers) to other programmes, but it's not like they will be running 8 Works GTs instead of 4 (IMSA and WEC combined) over the next 2 years?

Granted, they will be able to find new staff and new drivers if they want to be there in 2020. But that all takes time to build up and gel.
They know what they have now, not what they may or may not have come 2020.

[AoB Special Stage]

Can I just put a bookend in Porsche knowing how to make an older car continue to work by referencing the 956/962?

[MaskedRacer]

Mexico WEC entry list is out. I think we'll know Porsche LMP team's future by the next race.

[chernaudi]

The board meeting is on the 28th (four days away/Friday this week). The decision is allegedly due to be made by then. Porsche Motorsport have stated that they'll make an announcement sometime in August (late August is what I think they referenced).

I'd expect whatever decision gets made to be known well in advance unless Porsche do a very good job of keeping the outcome of the board meeting decision a closely guarded secret.

Audi Sport did keep their pull out decision out of the air until a few days after Fuji last year (though I'd have to think that decision was made quite a while before that).

[Starfish Primer]

It has a lot of sense Porsche moving to F1.

They have Hybrid knowledge and they can show on against 2 of their major street adversaries, Ferrari and Mercedes (even if the Mercs leave at the end of 2018 ).

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

It has a lot of sense Porsche moving to F1.

They have Hybrid knowledge and they can show on against 2 of their major street adversaries, Ferrari and Mercedes (even if the Mercs leave at the end of 2018 ).

Unlikely in theory, actually impossible.
After honda fiasco, guess that engine suppliers/manufacturers are scared to step in F1

[Starfish Primer]

When Honda joined they didn´t had the hybrid tech knowledge of Porsche, this is why they underestimated the complexities of a hybrid powerplant. Porsche has been 4 years running a system close to a F1 ( KERS + MGU-H ) and they can apply that experience to the F1.

It is the same as in the 80s when they produced the TAG engine, they had been for more than a decade building turbocharged engines.

[Adam43]

The rationale for not racing somewhere until there are a change in regs as we have here for Porsche in LMP1 also applies to F1 and waiting for the new engine regs round about the same time.

On a similar topic do we know when a Peugeot are leaving sportscar racing yet?

[canaglia]

Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Porsche and Toyota hybrid hardware is made (and surely project too) by third party companies. These ones are the real hybrid knowledge keepers.
Failure rate for a newcomer F1 manufacturer is too high to not be considered, indeed I read VW/audi/porsche/whatever F1 rumors for years.

[Starfish Primer]

Meanwhile Mercedes closes the DTM operations next year and joins Formula-e:

https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/sta...55410516135936

[chernaudi]

Not very good news for DTM if true. TV contracts recommend three manufacturers, though there were only two until BMW came back.

Also, one thing to remember if you want to go along with the VAG to F1 rumors, LMP1 is supposed to get their regs overhaul in 2020. F1 is currently 2021, but could be bumped up to 2020 if the teams and the FIA agree.

A lot of conjecture on the VAG to F1 front. But the Porsche pull out, if it happens, is more concerning in the short term, let alone to sports car racing.

[Adam43]

Quick everyone, to the touring car sub-forum. That's were the real racing talk is - there are more manufacturers that can pull out!

And please also consider that F1 rules are changing significantly about the time LMP regs are changing.

[AoB Special Stage]

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Porsche and Toyota hybrid hardware is made (and surely project too) by third party companies. These ones are the real hybrid knowledge keepers.
Failure rate for a newcomer F1 manufacturer is too high to not be considered, indeed I read VW/audi/porsche/whatever F1 rumors for years.

I don't think that's right. I know Porsche bought A123 systems and Toyota has patents on some of their hybrid tech.

[deggis]

The currently supported plan for F1 2021 is a simpler and cheaper V6, with a twin-turbo (improves sound, currently single) with only MGU-K. This is also to lure back independent manufacturers (Cosworth has already talked about a return).

So WEC can keep the most technogically advanced series in the world title... with the least amount of cars.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

When Honda joined they didn´t had the hybrid tech knowledge of Porsche, this is why they underestimated the complexities of a hybrid powerplant.

No. If that was the issue the same factory wouldn't have managed to make their Super GT cars worse by taking out the hybrid system. They have inexperienced staff because the only high level program that R&D center has really had since leaving F1 last time was the NRE, as well as also having to deal with some awful decisions McLaren made while the team was tanking and the company was changing.

Porsche has the advantage that they've gone through a lot of the pains of returning to top level motorsport already but it's hard to say how the competition level compares between WEC and F1.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

The currently supported plan for F1 2021 is a simpler and cheaper V6, with a twin-turbo (improves sound, currently single) with only MGU-K. This is also to lure back independent manufacturers (Cosworth has already talked about a return).

So WEC can keep the most technogically advanced series in the world title... with the least amount of cars.

That type of engine and hybrid system sounds familiar, and it's not run by Porsche but their rival...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

When Honda joined they didn´t had the hybrid tech knowledge of Porsche, this is why they underestimated the complexities of a hybrid powerplant. Porsche has been 4 years running a system close to a F1 ( KERS + MGU-H ) and they can apply that experience to the F1.

It is the same as in the 80s when they produced the TAG engine, they had been for more than a decade building turbocharged engines.

uhhh what

Honda has been building hybrid road cars since the early 00's, starting with the Insight, then the Civic and Accord, and the CR-Z.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Matt

uhhh what

Honda has been building hybrid road cars since the early 00's, starting with the Insight, then the Civic and Accord, and the CR-Z.

While I'm with you on the questioning the Honda deficit in hybrid knowledge, but there's not much in comparison between the road hybrid systems and F1 style systems. Honda's problems were in part linked to the cooling limitations of the chassis early on so a few times they retired the car for that. And they've had their share of ICE errors along the way as well so it's been a tough road on the hybrid and ICE sides.

[jee]

Porsche just announced that they are going to leave WEC after this season!

https://de.motorsport.com/wec/news/w...sstieg-934908/

[Mitchi_S]

Yeah, just read the same thing in the German news paper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung is now officially saying Porsche is a goner in WEC. Well, dang.

Two things to note:

Now this pretty much means the FIA loses the P1 world championship(?), so it's now only a GTE world championship...? FIA already said when Audi pulls out, this is is just an exception that something can call itself a world championship with only two manufacturer.

Also, Toyota might now be going aswell since they said their involvement in WEC is only happening if there's at least one other manufacturer. I doubt they'll race for themselves in the 24h of Le Mong 2018 and win it (well, it being Toyota, they'd probably **** that up, too, just like this year), just to be the second japanese manufacturer to do so. This isn't the japanese way of doing it.

This is the potential recession in P1 I have feard for for years.

[canaglia]

Farewell WEC, it was nice to meet you.
History repeats time after time, manufacturers step in and all togheter go out.

Time to introduce a dpi like class in WEC too if ACO wishes to have a pair of manufcaturers at le mans in future for the top class. It's really unlikely that someone new will approach to the series tempted by 2020 rules, who porsche and toyota decided.

[Gingers4Justice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObWrdYQ_6xY

[jee]

Originally Posted by canaglia

It's really unlikely that someone new will approach to the series tempted by 2020 rules, who porsche and toyota decided.

From what I heard which is of course not the official version, Porsche is very unhappy about the new regulations and they definitely played a role in leaving the series.