[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Aysedasi]

The cut out looks as though it was done by a young child with some very blunt scissors......

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The cut out looks as though it was done by a young child with some very blunt scissors......

The same one that does photoshop for Magnus Racing.

[Pandamasque]

B Sport on the Porsche LMDh https://youtu.be/BkN2JwzxWkw

[hondafan37]

Spyker LMDh?

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/...otorsport.html

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Spyker LMDh?

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/...otorsport.html

it seems there are SMP guys behind this commercial operation...
wonder how things will evolve considering russia is probably going to get new economics sanctions because of ukrainian crisis. Never liked spyker cars btw.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by canaglia

it seems there are SMP guys behind this commercial operation...
wonder how things will evolve considering russia is probably going to get new economics sanctions because of ukrainian crisis. Never liked spyker cars btw.

IIRC there are already sanctions from EU and USA against the Rotenberg brothers (owners of BR Engineering, SMP Bank and other companies).

[S griffin]

Yes that sounds familiar. I can't remember what the brothers did though, but that could potentially ruin any sponsorship deal a team or manufacturer could have had with them

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes that sounds familiar. I can't remember what the brothers did though, but that could potentially ruin any sponsorship deal a team or manufacturer could have had with them

sponsorship is the least of Rotenberg's worries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_...vich_Rotenberg

I'm sure the ACO and the FIA are more than happy to welcome Boris' 'russian dollars' with open arms despite whatever economical sanctions the EU might have in place...

[chernaudi]

Sanctions are related to them being favored/liked by Putin and Putin trying to influence goings ons in Ukraine (though to be fair, the US/EU/NATO are doing the same thing). Stuff like this is why I think that independent countries deserve their own right to self determination on what policy, if any, they favor. And not be pushed around by other powers that see them as little more than a political pawn or buffer.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

sponsorship is the least of Rotenberg's worries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_...vich_Rotenberg

I'm sure the ACO and the FIA are more than happy to welcome Boris' 'russian dollars' with open arms despite whatever economical sanctions the EU might have in place...

As far as I understand, their financial entities were found to be involved in funding mercenaries fighting Russia's war in the east of Ukraine, at least initially.

However, sanctions somehow didn't prevent Rotenberg from having quite the portfolio of sponsorship on the WEC grid. BR1 LMP1 project aside, SMP stickers were all over the AF Corse Ferraris as recently as 2020. So I can't imagine them running into trouble over that.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Sanctions are related to them being favored/liked by Putin and Putin trying to influence goings ons in Ukraine (though to be fair, the US/EU/NATO are doing the same thing). Stuff like this is why I think that independent countries deserve their own right to self determination on what policy, if any, they favor. And not be pushed around by other powers that see them as little more than a political pawn or buffer.

Yeah, it's a LOT more than just being liked and favored. Funding paramilitary action, illegal market activity against competition and multiple other major international law violations. It's not an internal self determination thing, oh and most of his money is taken out of the country making it international concerns

[joeb]

Apparently the LMP2 manufacturers haven't been told a lot of details on the next ruleset:

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2022/...2-details.html

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by joeb

Apparently the LMP2 manufacturers haven't been told a lot of details on the next ruleset:

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2022/...2-details.html

Crazy situation when they are full steam ahead building cars based on a rule set that doesn't exist yet.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Crazy situation when they are full steam ahead building cars based on a rule set that doesn't exist yet.

That was my thought as well. But the tub specs seem to have already been finalized and that is why the manufacturers can produce LMDh chassis. What happens to the P2 cars beyond the tub seems to be the question. What is the weight? Who will supply the engine and electronics? What are the dimensions and bodywork requirements?

[Mike E]

I think we can count on the weight being higher than last time.

[S griffin]

I don't know why they need to make the weight any higher, the cars are heavy enough as it is, with the power units and all that

[joeb]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don't know why they need to make the weight any higher, the cars are heavy enough as it is, with the power units and all that

To make them slower and separate the class from the Hypercars.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by joeb

Apparently the LMP2 manufacturers haven't been told a lot of details on the next ruleset:

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2022/...2-details.html

I always ask the same thing and I still can't understand it, Why is there so much fanaticism in this forum for a Spec Oreca category?
Maybe the ACO plan is to eliminate LMP2 which would be great!!!!!!!!
Maybe the future is an LMH/ LMDh AM.....

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I always ask the same thing and I still can't understand it, Why is there so much fanaticism in this forum for a Spec Oreca category?
Maybe the ACO plan is to eliminate LMP2 which would be great!!!!!!!!
Maybe the future is an LMH/ LMDh AM.....

That is not the plan.

LMP2 with BoP feels inevitable. And that's fine. With spec tyres and engines and very similar cars it wouldn't require much fiddling to balance them.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I always ask the same thing and I still can't understand it, Why is there so much fanaticism in this forum for a Spec Oreca category?
Maybe the ACO plan is to eliminate LMP2 which would be great!!!!!!!!
Maybe the future is an LMH/ LMDh AM.....

Responding seriously:

- It's not "fanaticism," hyperbole isn't going to help you make your point. In fact, compared to the pre-2017 regulations, there was far more activity on here regarding LMP2. Despite the extolling of great racing from all involved (and it is great racing), most on here recognise the loss of variety and lack of technical interest as a result. But for most of us, we still find entertainment from it. If you don't, fine. But scurrilous accusations of blind loyalty are not going to convince anybody that they should stop watching.

- While it isn't a "spec Oreca" series in principle, I - and many others - would have sympathy for this assessment. In fact, many posters have argued the exact point that introducing limited chassis suppliers would naturally lead to one chassis being preferred over the rest. And as luck would have it, the ACO's favourite chassis constructor just happened to have experience with the new regs from their work with Rebellion right in time for 2017...

- The ACO eliminating LMP2 has about as much credence as <insert flying pig analogy here>. Without being condescending, it's difficult to state the non-viability of this idea. LMP2 is now firmly established as the place for drivers and privateer teams to go for prototype racing. Yes, a proportion of drivers (and, hopefully, a small number of teams) will make the step up to LMH or LMDh, but for most, LMP2 provides a stable set of series and races that everyone is familiar with and can compete decently at.

- LMH/LMDh would need to come down in price by an order of magnitude for a wholesale replacement of LMP2 to be feasible. Yes, the best-funded operations could probably afford to dive right in, but we're talking less than ten teams across the globe, with half already tied to a manufacturer (to foot the bill) and the other half angling for a manufacturer to pick them up. To insert my own conjecture, I doubt many manufacturers are ever going to be open to allowing their cars to be used by anyone who can afford them, rather than the current arrangement of cherry-picking from the best privateer teams and forging tight-knit, NDA-filled relationships.

I get your frustration, but the mid-80s, and the mid-10s, are gone. You can either choose to find pleasure in what we have, or be perpetually angry about it. I've tried the latter, but for my own sake, I'll stick with the former.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I always ask the same thing and I still can't understand it, Why is there so much fanaticism in this forum for a Spec Oreca category?
Maybe the ACO plan is to eliminate LMP2 which would be great!!!!!!!!
Maybe the future is an LMH/ LMDh AM.....

ACO kills lmp2 = ACO kills WEC and LM

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by canaglia

ACO kills lmp2 = ACO kills WEC and LM

I think it really damages the pyramid. I'm not sure it hurts WEC or LM too much in the short to medium term? You could have an amazing race with the top class Hypercars and the new GT3 regs which would fill up the WEC grid. Should be more than enough interest to fill garages at Le Mans.

Some very loyal customers are in P2 and I don't think alienating them is a great move long term.

[Mike E]

This is a funny conversation. The central premise of LMDh is that it is relatively affordable because of the extensive use of spec components, notably the tub, and the fact that the tub is a homologated component. The tub is cheap because it can be produced in large numbers to satisfy a small LMDh market and a large LMP2 market. The two go together. Even the ACO can understand that.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by J Jay

I get your frustration, but the mid-80s, and the mid-10s, are gone. You can either choose to find pleasure in what we have, or be perpetually angry about it. I've tried the latter, but for my own sake, I'll stick with the former.

You left out the third option that's most terrifying for anyone worried about viability as a spectator sport: apathy

Originally Posted by Mike E

This is a funny conversation. The central premise of LMDh is that it is relatively affordable because of the extensive use of spec components, notably the tub, and the fact that the tub is a homologated component. The tub is cheap because it can be produced in large numbers to satisfy a small LMDh market and a large LMP2 market. The two go together. Even the ACO can understand that.

Which is the segue to me asking if everyone missed what I found the most amusing part of that DSC article.

tl;dr:
If there's a lot of Hypercar entries then there is potentially not enough spots for LMP2 at Le Mans for teams to feel justified in the expense of buying a new car
But if a bunch of LMP2 teams don't buy the new cars then the budget projections for many of the LMDh programs using the ORECA or Dallara chassis fall apart

Multimatic is in a unique position because they intend to sell some number of Porsche and Audi customer cars instead but in general you have an issue of LMDh consuming the source of its viability. But an important takeaway from this is to remember that the current LMP2 hasn't been so successful numerically just because of its cost control aspects but largely because it's been by far the most accessible and simplest way to successfully enter a car at Le Mans. If they have to really start fighting factory teams for entries like GTE a few years ago things will become very different.

[Mike E]

They will have to revisit these plans

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/...y-numbers.html