[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[Tourer]

That article from Benson is interesting enough but of course he doesn't know the story either. He hangs his hat somewhat on the statement from Red Bull re dismissal of the complaint being brief and offering not a lot of detail but in my experience, any time a statement is put out that does or could have legal consequences, the advice from the legal fraternity has consistently been to say as little as possible.

Throughout this whole sorry mess, one thing that I've wondered is that age-old question from a gazillion detective stories - "who benefits?".

Originally, when the investigation into the allegations against Horner was announced by Red Bull, the media theory was that Mintzlaff was behind it all - wanting more power over the race team or something like that. Then as "leaks" started to appear in Dutch media, the theory was that either Verstappen snr or Marko (or both) were behind it all. Those theories remained after the complaint was dismissed but alleged text communication was emailed to various F1 figures. Then Marko claimed that he could be suspended (no announcement from Red Bull of any investigation of him prior to that), then Jos had more to say etc. Other theories have suggested that Horner is looking to own the team outright with the Thais, or that the Thais and Austrians are in some kind of power struggle.

We of course haven't had any statement from Red Bull or Red Bull Racing confirming that the complainant has been suspended, the coverage of that has all been based on a single media report that has then spread. I had a video land in my YouTube feed a few days ago, identifying the complainant, saying that she'd been suspended once the time deadline for lodging an appeal had passed, it also said that she was in a relationship with Verstappen Snr - no way of knowing if even one bit of that video was factually accurate.

Through it all though, I've wondered what benefit any of them gain by messing about with Red Bull's largest branding tool, and a very successful one at that. The only theories (which is all we have so far) that might fit that (to my mind) are an ego-driven attack from Verstappen Snr, in support of his alleged girlfriend OR the theory about Horner wanting to buy out Red Bull's share of Red Bull Racing and him co-owning with the Thais. In both cases, I can see that some would benefit from discrediting Horner.

Of course there are competitors in pit lane who might benefit if the wheels fall off the Red Bull Racing bandwagon but I honestly think that is probably too far-fetched and none of them live exclusively in glass houses.

This may be far from over, or we may not hear anything further but one thing is for sure, it has been an unholy mess and quite an extraordinary series of claims, leaks, counter claims and happenings - all (at this stage) to end up right back where we were prior to the claims being made, the only change being that the claimant has allegedly been suspended on full pay.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The complaint being dismissed does not mean there was no evidence to support the claim.

'Post hoc ergo propter hoc, is an informal fallacy that states that because an event followed another, it was caused by it. Correlation appears to suggest causality, but sometimes it's not the case.

In the Horner situation, the complaint was dismissed after the board received the KC's report. But that is not necessarily the same as the report being crucial in that decision.'

Does not mean that there was evidence to support the claim either. Reality is that neither of us know for sure (nor does Mr Benson, whom you quote).

[TWRv12]

Marko now safe, Boner canned before OZ?

RB afraid of the threat of a U2 song: "Don't be horny, be Christian"?

Business F1 stirring the pot as usual too.


RB state their full support for CH yet again...


https://f1-insider.com/formel-1-horn...-feuern-62457/


https://speedcafe.com/christian-horn...bizarre-twist/

[chillibowl]

this U2 connection and their connection to the team thing is silly but reminds me of Spaceballs so thats pretty awesome!

[Richard C]

While the U2 connection might be real, I really wonder if the song threat (and impending firing of CH) is real. I sort of doubt it, but... this story has been pretty crazy so far, so never say never.

Richard

[steve_r]

Stop the world. I want to get off.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Stop the world. I want to get off.

now thats how you name a song!

[Lancsbreaker]

Having made the rookie error of delving into one or two Youtube clips on the topic, it amazes me how many boringly voiced - presumably AI generated - articles there are which offer click-bait titles but remarkably little of substance.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Having made the rookie error of delving into one or two Youtube clips on the topic, it amazes me how many boringly voiced - presumably AI generated - articles there are which offer click-bait titles but remarkably little of substance.

No doubt. I find that you have to pick a source (in this case YouTube channel) that you find you like/trust vs. whatever the algorithm suggests. There is quite a bit of auto generated YT content that exists purely to generate revenue regardless of it's accuracy.

Richard

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Richard C

While the U2 connection might be real, I really wonder if the song threat (and impending firing of CH) is real. I sort of doubt it, but... this story has been pretty crazy so far, so never say never.

Richard

Somehow I cannot see Bono ( not Hamilton’s engineer) getting worked up by the subject matter.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Somehow I cannot see Bono ( not Hamilton’s engineer) getting worked up by the subject matter.

You might be right, but as I posted previously:

"The main reason for dismissing Horner now anyway would be because the Irish rock band U2 is getting involved. This is because the brother of the woman at issue in the investigation is the brother-in-law of guitarist 'The Edge'. The band reportedly wants to release a song called: 'Don't be Horny, Be a Christian'. The band's pressure with this with their mega influence would have persuaded the Thai owner of Red Bull to fire Horner after all."

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

You might be right, but as I posted previously:

"The main reason for dismissing Horner now anyway would be because the Irish rock band U2 is getting involved. This is because the brother of the woman at issue in the investigation is the brother-in-law of guitarist 'The Edge'. The band reportedly wants to release a song called: 'Don't be Horny, Be a Christian'. The band's pressure with this with their mega influence would have persuaded the Thai owner of Red Bull to fire Horner after all."

Does Chalerm Yoovidhya, that's the Thai owner of Red Bull, even listen to U2?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Does Chalerm Yoovidhya, that's the Thai owner of Red Bull, even listen to U2?

Assuming this U2 song thing is true (I am doubtful), the question is... Does Chalerm Yoovidhya care about the level of negative attention this will bring to the Red Bull brand if it were to happen.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Assuming this U2 song thing is true (I am doubtful), the question is... Does Chalerm Yoovidhya care about the level of negative attention this will bring to the Red Bull brand if it were to happen.

Richard

That will depend on how well it sells.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

You might be right, but as I posted previously:

"The main reason for dismissing Horner now anyway would be because the Irish rock band U2 is getting involved. This is because the brother of the woman at issue in the investigation is the brother-in-law of guitarist 'The Edge'. The band reportedly wants to release a song called: 'Don't be Horny, Be a Christian'. The band's pressure with this with their mega influence would have persuaded the Thai owner of Red Bull to fire Horner after all."

I am/was a big U2 fan.Given how glacial their work and release process is the song ,if it exists , won’t be out for another 5 years anyway.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That will depend on how well it sells.

I am not sure if you are joking or not. It actually doesn't have to sell much if at all. It's existence is all that would matter. In fact, they may not even need to make it. For the most part this drama is somewhat living within the F1 bubble (fan, teams, F1 specific media, etc.) I think the juiciness of the drama has allowed it to creep over into mainstream news just a bit. This is given name recognition of both Red Bull and Geri Halliwell as well as anything that hints at a "me too" type of situation. Having a highly successful and well known pop culture band such as U2 enter the fray and it elevates this to a much higher level of visibility. It would spill right out of the F1 bubble and into "general news".

It would play out in the media as "U2 creates song to protest sexual abuse by Red Bull executives" or something to that effect. Is that a fair assessment or portrayal of the situation? We know it's more nuanced than that, but the headline has to be short and have a hook.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I am/was a big U2 fan.Given how glacial their work and release process is the song ,if it exists , won’t be out for another 5 years anyway.

Haha. That is true!

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I am not sure if you are joking or not. It actually doesn't have to sell much if at all. It's existence is all that would matter. In fact, they may not even need to make it. For the most part this drama is somewhat living within the F1 bubble (fan, teams, F1 specific media, etc.) I think the juiciness of the drama has allowed it to creep over into mainstream news just a bit. This is given name recognition of both Red Bull and Geri Halliwell as well as anything that hints at a "me too" type of situation. Having a highly successful and well known pop culture band such as U2 enter the fray and it elevates this to a much higher level of visibility. It would spill right out of the F1 bubble and into "general news".

It would play out in the media as "U2 creates song to protest sexual abuse by Red Bull executives" or something to that effect. Is that a fair assessment or portrayal of the situation? We know it's more nuanced than that, but the headline has to be short and have a hook.

Richard

Sell is not quite the right word to use, what with streaming. However, if the song is going to make an impact, people will still need to be able to listen to it. It doesn't matter how well known U2 are if there isn't an actual product.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Sell is not quite the right word to use, what with streaming. However, if the song is going to make an impact, people will still need to be able to listen to it.

No doubt if this hypothetical song sold (streaming is sales as well) well it would increase the exposure. My point is there would be a significant impact even with low sales.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It doesn't matter how well known U2 are if there isn't an actual product.

It doesn't exist today and it's having an impact.

Richard

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

No doubt. I find that you have to pick a source (in this case YouTube channel) that you find you like/trust vs. whatever the algorithm suggests. There is quite a bit of auto generated YT content that exists purely to generate revenue regardless of it's accuracy.

Richard

Long time photographer and part time journo Kym Illman has made a decebt fist of reportimg various faces seen around the paddock involved in this saga.
He regularly posts content from.GP weekends about drivers, their partners, agents/managers etc in a 'That was imteresting to see so-and-so talkimg to each other, I wonder what were they discussimg?' kind of manner.

Lots of interesting tit bits which may or may not be significant.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I want to get off.

That's how this whole debacle started!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Long time photographer and part time journo Kym Illman has made a decebt fist of reportimg various faces seen around the paddock involved in this saga.
He regularly posts content from.GP weekends about drivers, their partners, agents/managers etc in a 'That was imteresting to see so-and-so talkimg to each other, I wonder what were they discussimg?' kind of manner.

Lots of interesting tit bits which may or may not be significant.

Thanks. I found his YT and Instagram. I will check him out.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard C

No doubt if this hypothetical song sold (streaming is sales as well) well it would increase the exposure. My point is there would be a significant impact even with low sales.


It doesn't exist today and it's having an impact.

Richard

The impact is minimal.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Richard C

No doubt if this hypothetical song sold (streaming is sales as well) well it would increase the exposure. My point is there would be a significant impact even with low sales.


It doesn't exist today and it's having an impact.

Richard

Impact meaning extra clicks on clickbait sites?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The impact is minimal.

"Current" impact minimal? I would agree it is minimal, but also not zero. At least yesterday it was keeping the story alive in social media.

I do think we are going round and round here. My original comments were around "if" U2 were actually going to do this and my opinion as to how that would impact the overall situation. It wasn't focused on some type of social media tease. And I think it is very obvious that if it actually did happen, it would elevate the pressure significantly given it would move out of F1 centric news items and into a more global news item.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Impact meaning extra clicks on clickbait sites?

That is just an intermediate step. The impact is that it's being talked about in social media even if it is likely not real. I tend to think Red Bull is trying to sit tight and hope that it all settles down or that other stories rise to the top in the news cycle (such as Massa has done yesterday/today) and that new revelations and/or claims don't keep popping up.

As I have said, I frankly doubt the veracity of the entire U2 song story. I guess it still might materialize, but I wouldn't bet on it. I think the real potential at this point is if the complainant takes this to court.

Richard