[ELMS] ELMS Discussion

[JoeW04]

Originally Posted by v8supes

Still not sure how Bovy is still a bronze driver though. So much faster than the other bronzes and racing nearly every week.

Probably not a popular opinion but the Iron Dames are good for business for both FIA WEC & ELMS so I don’t think their driver rankings get the same scrutiny as everyone else.

[tomcug]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/elms...cy-infraction/
Ouch, RIP Panis win.

[J Jay]

I hope Bovy isn't going to bemoan her/Iron Lynx's bad luck this time...


Small error, but she should have backed up and conceded to Griffin. Bovy & Griffin off, Lausen unfortunately gets caught by both of them.

[AndreasDavour]

I think Matt Griffin is missing that The Iron Dames has been the target of some rough driving, and while it looks like it would have been smoother to let a Gold go, I think the Iron Dames might feel they have to drive rougher to get some respect.

[AndreasDavour]

It probably wasn't smart, but I think I understand what Bovy where thinking.

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by v8supes

Still not sure how Bovy is still a bronze driver though. So much faster than the other bronzes and racing nearly every week.

I don't think speed is part of the equation. There are other things they base it on.



Case in point, Ben Keating.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by AndreasDavour

I think Matt Griffin is missing that The Iron Dames has been the target of some rough driving, and while it looks like it would have been smoother to let a Gold go, I think the Iron Dames might feel they have to drive rougher to get some respect.

Would Hamaguchi be one of these rough drivers? What did he do to deserve being run into at Eau Rouge? All her "rough driving" has done there has put herself and two other cars out of the race.


Driving "rougher" will only lead to more accidents, as this race has aptly demonstrated. Bovy, along with a few LMP2 drivers, have had poor races here so far.

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Driving "rougher" will only lead to more accidents, as this race has aptly demonstrated. Bovy, along with a few LMP2 drivers, have had poor races here so far.

I think you are 100% correct, and it is not a smart way to go.

[TCT]

Bovy involved in a accident again.


How many people's races has she ruined today?
#55
#50
#63
at least...


Hopefully the #85 is out too.





They should park her for a while and put D. Pin in or another female driver form the Iron Dames stable.

[J Jay]

A quick word for half the LMP2 field as well: they've been far too hasty in overtaking each other and lapping traffic.



The stress Freitas put on "We will be doing the pass-around again" was notable.

[flatlandsman]

Some pretty poor driving all round, Bovy driving like an idiot, twice, Cullen thinking he is in a dodgem, I switched it off I am afraid the standard is just too poor

The petulance some of these stupid little men show is unreal.

[chernaudi]

I know that the IMSA area has a driving standards thread, but maybe now their should be one in the ACO-series threads. Even the WEC has had moments of prototype vs GT and prototype vs prototype and GT vs GT fratricide this year (namely at Le Mans). And there it was also usually pro vs pro fratricide as far as the drivers taking each other out.

[Akrapovic]

The first accident was Bovys fault. The Lambo checked up, and she reacted which took out Griffin. It's completely understandable why the accident happened, but it's her fault. I completely disagree with anyone (including Griffin) saying she should've given up the place. Had the Lambo not been slow at that point she could've kept the position. This is a motor race.

The second accident I don't see how it's her fault? The Lambo once again over-slowed in a bizarre place, she went around it, and the Lambo was well over a cars width off the apex and drove into her.

I think we also need to keep in mind how many Am drivers there are in these rather professional level cars. It wasn't a clean race by any aspects, but frankly it's amazing we ever do have clean races with this many Ams. The standards are higher than they ever have been in sportscar racing.

[flatlandsman]

The point Griffin was making was that he is a gold, yes they are petulant little brats all the time but he has an element of a point, she is PAID, she is not a typical bronze in I think we all know she is not bronze at all she is far quicker, she was doing the same as Griffin, working her way through the Ams, of which she really is not one. The Am in the Lambo hesitated briefly, she hit the kerb and slid into him, the accident later was just that, he had damage due to the proto being a bellend and his steering was damaged.

You are always going t get this at this level, but the fact it happens in WEC aswell is a shame, I know the Ams always have to be a part of endurance racing but at times it can be difficult to watch

And we will get the tirade of the Pros should know this, and that is a fact, but hen you have this ability disparity you will always have issues, always regardless of fault.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

The point Griffin was making was that he is a gold, yes they are petulant little brats all the time but he has an element of a point, she is PAID, she is not a typical bronze in I think we all know she is not bronze at all she is far quicker, she was doing the same as Griffin, working her way through the Ams, of which she really is not one. The Am in the Lambo hesitated briefly, she hit the kerb and slid into him, the accident later was just that, he had damage due to the proto being a bellend and his steering was damaged.

You are always going t get this at this level, but the fact it happens in WEC aswell is a shame, I know the Ams always have to be a part of endurance racing but at times it can be difficult to watch

And we will get the tirade of the Pros should know this, and that is a fact, but hen you have this ability disparity you will always have issues, always regardless of fault.

Griffin had a little bit of an unhinged rant, if I'm honest. It was a whole bunch of points rammed into one emotional interview.

At the end of the day, Bovy caused an accident. The Lambo checked up, which was the real cause, but Bovy was the one at fault because of how she reacted. At that point, Griffins anger is justified - he's out of the race due to the mistake of another driver.

But what does the driver rating have to do with the accident? If she was silver would it not have happened? And what was all this rant about how she's meant to be racing the bronze, so let the gold through and get the time back when the bronze was in? This is motor racing. Why should she give the position? If she lets him through and gets the bronze a bigger lead then it just makes her team mates job harder when they swap too.

My comment regarding the Eau Rouge incident was in response to your point of "Bovy driving like an idiot, twice". Unless you're referencing another incident that I don't recall, I only remember her cause the Les Combe incident. She was an innocent victim in the Eau Rouge one. If you're referencing another incident that I've forgotten then my bad!

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Had the Lambo not been slow at that point she could've kept the position. This is a motor race.

But Hamaguchi was in front, and he was slower than Bovy. Having to introduce hypotheticals doesn't make for a compelling case. Motor races are not won in one corner.

Griffin was alongside Bovy from the entrance to Les Combes; with the right-hander coming up the place was already lost. She was caught out, fair and square and she should have checked up to go again later in the lap.

The second accident I don't see how it's her fault? The Lambo once again over-slowed in a bizarre place, she went around it, and the Lambo was well over a cars width off the apex and drove into her.

I can only assume something was up with the Lambo's steering that Hamaguchi did not realise/catch on the relatively straight run from La Source to Eau Rouge, but Bovy was unfortunate here, she didn't do anything wrong.

This is motor racing. Why should she give the position? If she lets him through and gets the bronze a bigger lead then it just makes her team mates job harder when they swap too.

As the replay shows, the positon was already lost. If Bovy didn't realise that, it only puts more blame on her. She, and anyone else in the same position, should give the position if the alternative is a high chance of an incident.


"If you don't go for a gap..." should stick to single-seaters where it belongs.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by J Jay

But Hamaguchi was in front, and he was slower than Bovy. Having to introduce hypotheticals doesn't make for a compelling case. Motor races are not won in one corner.

Griffin was alongside Bovy from the entrance to Les Combes; with the right-hander coming up the place was already lost. She was caught out, fair and square and she should have checked up to go again later in the lap.

Respectfully, I disagree with all of this.

It isn't 'introducing hypotheticals' - it's that the Lambo did something unexpected. Had the Lambo continued on the trajectory that would be expected, there was a significant chance of holding the position.

Griffin was alongside Bovy at the entrance. However by the apex, she still had a nose ahead. Come the apex of the left hander, she was half a car length ahead - at that point they made contact with the overly slow Lambo, which then caused her to check up and get out of shape. She had half a car length ahead at the apex of the left hander, and that was increasing.

When you're driving a car you can't keep 10 car lengths from the car in front based on a "what if". This isn't a road car on a motor way. You have to drive assuming they will do what they normally do. Had that been the case, the ability to fight back was 100% on. Before the contact it looked like she was going to successfully fight off the position.

The position was not only not "already lost", it was completely realistic to attempt to defend it.

The incident is her fault, but the defense was completely valid.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Respectfully, I disagree with all of this.

Rsepctfully, same here. You didn't neeed to say it, but thanks.

It isn't 'introducing hypotheticals' - it's that the Lambo did something unexpected. Had the Lambo continued on the trajectory that would be expected, there was a significant chance of holding the position.

Sorry, this isn't true. Hamaguchi was slower than Bovy and Griffin (a Gold and one of world's fastest bronze drivers respectively) but not overly slow as if he was crawling. He was doing his racing speed with two faster drivers right behind.

Hence my hypothetical comment - replay this scenario a hundred times, and every time he is no faster through the corner. As an experienced driver, Bovy should have expected this. Therefore, there was no significant chance of holding the position because there was no other trajectory for the Lamborghini. Bovy was stuck behind, so Griffin would have gone from half a car to being three-quarters to fully alongside by the exit with the inside line to Bruxelles.


Compare this to the second incident, where Hamaguchi was doing something unexpected (going very slowly, moving off the racing line) and therefore even though Bovy took precautions, she unfortunately was still hit.

You have to drive assuming they will do what they normally do. Had that been the case, the ability to fight back was 100% on. Before the contact it looked like she was going to successfully fight off the position.

See above; Hamaguchi was doing what he was normally doing.

[flatlandsman]

The big issue here is attitude, the best endurance drivers are those that get involved in the least number of incidents.

I have not been a close fan of the sport long enough to tell you who that might be these days, in any class.

The thing with the Dames is that it cannot all be just luck, that team makes a lot of mistakes, I think the desperation for them to do well is causing a lot of issues.

For me to try and overtake another GT car at Eau Rouge is a huge rick, yes the car was slow, so why take the risk, you dont know what is wrong with it, it is also in their team after all, Lynx and Dames are the same!!

It was not just them though, several P2 drivers were making very poor decisions, and those are cars were this can have huge consequences.

I know we are a step down the talent pool here, but in P2 a lot of guys there were top drawer having dayts away from WEC, so a little poor still

[J Jay]

Save of the Season from Koolen right there!


Contact between #37 & #30 just past pit exit, Koolen goes sideways but avoids a full spin, the barriers and every other car on track.

[J Jay]

Huge crash for #60, thankfully Schiavoni walks away.

Looks like Frey went into the back of him at pit exit.

Edit - Frey moved too late. That's a big error, we're lucky no other cars were taken out.

[tomcug]

And back to racing, who knows for how long

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by tomcug

And back to racing, who knows for how long

Hopefully more than 10 minutes. Good to see that the red flag time was added back on.

Edit - Me and my big mouth. #17 Cool Racing LMP3 off, that'll be another FCY.

[tomcug]

And I think Iron Dames hit someone again

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by tomcug

And I think Iron Dames hit someone again

Into the back of Stevenson on the slow-down for FCY. Replay shows Stevenson slowed to not rear-end the JMW Ferrari. Frey did not notice this and ...

The Dames have had horrible luck and horrible decision-making in equal measure this season.