[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[CTD]

Hmm, for some reason i do not see Red Bull at Le Mans, especially not winning it.
First off, racing in both Le Mans and F1 takes huge budgets, and being able to race for the win takes even more. I doubt that Red Bulls pockets are that deep, to fund a race winning Lmp1 and F1 car.

Secondly, i don't think that the Red Bull team is ready for Le Mans. Yes they build incredibly fast cars, even with slow engines, but the team itself made way too many errors in this season, and those errors will only multiply under a high pressure 24 hours race.

Thirdly, as there has been mentioned, what engine will Red Bull race!?, they do not have a engine department (yet), so they will have to buy a engine. Yes there are some good ones out there, but are they good enough to beat the factory cars!?

I hope that Red Bull joins Lmp racing, but i unfortunately see too many obstacles to over come, for this to be true.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by CTD

Hmm, for some reason i do not see Red Bull at Le Mans, especially not winning it.
First off, racing in both Le Mans and F1 takes huge budgets, and being able to race for the win takes even more. I doubt that Red Bulls pockets are that deep, to fund a race winning Lmp1 and F1 car.

So that means they don't have the money to fund mulitple Nascar teams? They don't have the money to fund not one but two F1 teams?

Secondly, i don't think that the Red Bull team is ready for Le Mans. Yes they build incredibly fast cars, even with slow engines, but the team itself made way too many errors in this season, and those errors will only multiply under a high pressure 24 hours race.

Pressure? Trailing Ferrari going into the last race of the season wasn't pressurized?

Thirdly, as there has been mentioned, what engine will Red Bull race!?, they do not have a engine department (yet), so they will have to buy a engine. Yes there are some good ones out there, but are they good enough to beat the factory cars!?

I hope that Red Bull joins Lmp racing, but i unfortunately see too many obstacles to over come, for this to be true.

I don't for a moment expect them to pop right out of the box and win at Le Mans. It took half a decade to turn Red Bull Racing into the powerhouse it has become. But I don't discount their record either.

As far as engines? They already have a working relationship with Renault, and Peugeot has shown they can be bought(Oreca diesel) Or if Audi finds the R18 still can't equal the latest PUG, they may be inclined to supply engines to another German marque so they can cut costs but still promote their TDI tech.

Red Bull may replicate their F1 model and BUY an existing team. Can you say Red Bull Aston? I think the most dangerous scenario would be that Audi and Peugeot might bail completely from Sportscar racing rather than fund programs that now have to contend with a third major player.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

As far as engines? They already have a working relationship with Renault, and Peugeot has shown they can be bought(Oreca diesel) Or if Audi finds the R18 still can't equal the latest PUG, they may be inclined to supply engines to another German marque so they can cut costs but still promote their TDI tech.

Which German marque?

I agree about the team making errors this year in F1, but having two drivers fight for the title was a new situation for them. I'm sure they'll learn something from it.

Besides, any LM program wouldn't be run by exactly the same people on the pitwall. It would be effectively a new race team, unless they pull out of F1.

[carsten66]

Red Bull is an Austrian company... and money really isn't a problem, normally the marketing budget they are spending is something in the amount of 1,4 billion Euro's - annually...

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by carsten66

Red Bull is an Austrian company... and money really isn't a problem, normally the marketing budget they are spending is something in the amount of 1,4 billion Euro's - annually...

Sorry, to a West Coast Yank, Austria = Germany. My bad. lol!
dh

[JAG]

Red Bull seem to be involved in everything motorised these days, when you see how radical the R18 looks and take into account the technical freedoms on the engine/hybrid front, not to mention Neweys Le Mans links, it looks like a good fit.

[Mal]

Maybe there is a manufacturer out there that wants to build the best car in 2013 - if so who better to team up with than Adrian Newey and Red Bull??

Adrian also regularly says he wants new challenges outside of F1 so LM would be a good start.

I am still sceptical but I do hope it is true.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Mal

Maybe there is a manufacturer out there that wants to build the best car in 2013 - if so who better to team up with than Adrian Newey and Red Bull??

Adrian also regularly says he wants new challenges outside of F1 so LM would be a good start.

I am still sceptical but I do hope it is true.

Yep I'd say there will have to be a manufacturer behind this. Someone has to provide the powerplant.

If it did happen I think it would look significantly different to anything we've seen before.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by Mal

Maybe there is a manufacturer out there that wants to build the best car in 2013 - if so who better to team up with than Adrian Newey and Red Bull??

Adrian also regularly says he wants new challenges outside of F1 so LM would be a good start.

I am still sceptical but I do hope it is true.

That got me to thinking about the limitations of the Red Bull F1 car. It was a magnificent sprinter, but Newey's Aero work was so minute(wrong word but I'm drawing a blank) that even little dings caused major system failures.(stuck front winglets blocking brake ducts, for example) He would have to step back from the bleeding edge of design if he wants a car that will succeed.
The last decade is full of examples where the Rabbit (Pescarolo/Peugeot) lost to the Tortise(Audi in both cases) A blistering fast Proto that can't survive even a slight bump with a GT car won't win the day at Le Mans. How many times did the solid R8 press on after a scrape with another car? Newey will have to think both as an aero guy and a construction engineer.

[Mal]

[QUOTE=davehenrie;2812165] How many times did the solid R8 press on after a scrape with another car? Newey will have to think both as an aero guy and a construction engineer.[/QUOTE

Yes - I will never forget the year (2004) when the Lehto and McNish went off into the barriers at the start of the Porsche curves at 180mph - both managed to get their battered cars back to the pits and both went on to post good finishes - except that McNish was concussed and had to sit out the rest of the race!

[Tim the Grey]

CTD? Just about every motor sport event I go to has SOMETHING with Red Bull stickers on it. They have lakes of money to spend. I reckon they could do F1, WRC, FIAGT1, LMS, ALMS, ILMC, and every 24 hour race going, and STILL have pocket change for a MotoGP team, F3, and Nascar...

Yup, F1 designers have to learn to over, and under, engineer LMP cars! They are a set of interlocking compromises, yet each bit has to work on it's own, assuming the others broke, or fell off!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

CTD? Just about every motor sport event I go to has SOMETHING with Red Bull stickers on it. They have lakes of money to spend. I reckon they could do F1, WRC, FIAGT1, LMS, ALMS, ILMC, and every 24 hour race going, and STILL have pocket change for a MotoGP team, F3, and Nascar...

Yup, F1 designers have to learn to over, and under, engineer LMP cars! They are a set of interlocking compromises, yet each bit has to work on it's own, assuming the others broke, or fell off!

Then ill never understand how deep their pockets are!

[lemansfan]

And I d'ont understand how many People are drinking Red Bull and fly away .

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Mal

Maybe there is a manufacturer out there that wants to build the best car in 2013 - if so who better to team up with than Adrian Newey and Red Bull??

Adrian also regularly says he wants new challenges outside of F1 so LM would be a good start.

I am still sceptical but I do hope it is true.

I didn't hear it fully but someone emailed Midweek Motorsport saying they were at Le Mans this year on official Red Bull business (on the race/engineering side rather than marketing).

[chernaudi]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and it deals with the LMP cars having reduced fuel capcity and the fact that the big diesels were able to triple and quadruple stint tires at will in 2010.

Considering lap times, reduced power, theoretically reduced range, and aloted drive times (no more than four consecutive hours/no more than four out of six consecutive hours and 14hrs. max for one driver), is it perhaps possible that we can see 5 stints on a set of tires, or given those parameters, will we just see quad stints at most?

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I've been thinking about this for a while, and it deals with the LMP cars having reduced fuel capcity and the fact that the big diesels were able to triple and quadruple stint tires at will in 2010.

Considering lap times, reduced power, theoretically reduced range, and aloted drive times (no more than four consecutive hours/no more than four out of six consecutive hours and 14hrs. max for one driver), is it perhaps possible that we can see 5 stints on a set of tires, or given those parameters, will we just see quad stints at most?

The car's power will be reduced, but the Mass, braking and turning forces will still be the same. I suspect the tires won't last 5 stints, or if they do, they won't be very productive at the end.

[Tim the Grey]

I suspect, if Chernaudi's oft-mentioned Large Front Tyres get used, then you may see a reduction in stints, as driver fatigue kicks in. If you are braking later, and turning harder, the driver wears out before the car does!!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

I suspect, if Chernaudi's oft-mentioned Large Front Tyres get used, then you may see a reduction in stints, as driver fatigue kicks in. If you are braking later, and turning harder, the driver wears out before the car does!!

This could also mean that we will see top drivers retire much (too) earlier (early).
Tom K and McNish are in great shape for todays needs, but if it's getting much harder to drive, they may start to feel too old.

[gwyllion]

I don't think cornering speed will improve this year. Wider front tyres will indeed increase mechanical grip. However cars will run with less downforce/drag to overcome the engine power reduction.

[chernaudi]

In low speed corners (where the Audi R15 was inconsistant), the grip will be much better. Also, I don't think it's a matter of the wider tires inducing driver fatigue--modern LMPs have had power steering for years, and Audi, having tested rears on the front of the R15 in the past, know that their EPS can take the strain.

I think that the faster 150+mph, 4G corners will be much harder on the drivers physically and mentally.

What's interesting though is the mechanics who change the front tires--Marshall Pruett claimed that Audi Sport doctors have advised tire changers to add a bit of muscle mass to deal with having all four tire/wheel setups weighing about the same.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I think that the faster 150+mph, 4G corners will be much harder on the drivers physically and mentally.

I don't think we've ever seen quadruple (or even triple stints) in Acura/Porsche P2 cars. Diesels could afford to drag a lot of downforce around (and to drag their bigger shapes) with their 700 horses, but with P2 power level, I would think that - at least at LM - they would want to trim the cars so they can exceed 320 km/h. What would be very interesting is if the manufacturers went opposite ways and could both achieve similar lap times with a large top speed difference. I think we have to look at golden era P2s to see what kinda of compromises are possible with 550 horses, and I'm not sure the maximum downforce approach that was suitable for America and yielded 4Gs is the best, especially since diesels look like trucks when compared to sleaker atmospheric cars.

[chernaudi]

The LMP2s that have run at LM have run similar areo tweaks compared to the LMP1's. Also, Audi and Bentley at LM in 2003 ran to similar power levels, and they ran a fair bit of downforce.

Le Mans has 5 spots on it where the cars appoach/break the 200mph barrier, but the need downforce for the Porsche Curves and the various fast corners.

I think that the biggest thing here as a variable may be torque. The Audi and Pug diesels will have power and torque levels similar to the '03 Audi and Bentley packages, and we know how fast the Bentley was with a little over 550bhp. I think it was the 550+ ft/lbs of torque that was shared with the Audi R8 that made the difference there.

Remember, horsepower is how fast you're going when you hit the wall (or air, in this case), and torque is how far you push it.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

In low speed corners (where the Audi R15 was inconsistant), the grip will be much better. Also, I don't think it's a matter of the wider tires inducing driver fatigue--modern LMPs have had power steering for years, and Audi, having tested rears on the front of the R15 in the past, know that their EPS can take the strain.

When the P1 Acura took the pole position at Sebring, the driver was not the usual ALMS driver, but Scott Dixon who is an Indycar driver who was much more accustomed to high g force oval that really require strength of grip and neck. I think it was DeFerran who commented on Dixon's conditioning for Indy helped him drive the Acura. Even with Powersteering, there will be big lateral loads and more braking forces. A casual driver could easily be overwhelmed by the increased physical demands. I don't see this being a problem for McNish but Audi has been weeding out the older drivers and slowly introducing younger men. Biela, Dindo etc.

I think that the faster 150+mph, 4G corners will be much harder on the drivers physically and mentally.

What's interesting though is the mechanics who change the front tires--Marshall Pruett claimed that Audi Sport doctors have advised tire changers to add a bit of muscle mass to deal with having all four tire/wheel setups weighing about the same.

Sometime before Champcar died, while watching a Champcar event on the tube, the front tire changer for one of the major teams pulled the front tire/wheel off the hub and then just flipped it up over his head back over the wall to a waiting crew member. I think they got in a little trouble for that but it just amazed me how easily he tossed it back over his head without turning. Folks on the net said the tire wheel combo on the Champcar was relatively light.

[chernaudi]

But then again, Indy cars/CART Champ cars, like F1 cars, have much narrower front wheels than even LMP900s, and even LMP675/LMP2s--the Audi R8 ran the same tire/wheel width as the R15 did the past couple of years--13" treadwidth and a 13.5x18" wheel. Also, the LMP wheel has to last longer than a short sprint race.

Add to that the fact that the diesel LMP1 tires have a 30mm larger circumference (680mm vs 650mm), the tire's gonna be a bit heavier and add about an inch in wheel width and tire width for the R18, and that's even more weight.

The Acura had HPS due to packaging and the fact that they ran rears on the fronts, which where pretty intert to turning because of the stiff sidewalls, unlike the purpose made tires that Audi and Peugeot paid Michelin for. I think that the drivers will be OK with it, and so wold the teams if it was still two wheel guns per pit stop, which we don't know if IMSA will stick with that all season, drop it for the ILMC events, or fully adopt the ACO pit regs all season.

As for the Audi R18/R15 test, it seems that Audi has Sebring rented for all next week--could this be a set up for an endurance test attempt for the R18?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The Audi and Pug diesels will have power and torque levels similar to the '03 Audi and Bentley packages, and we know how fast the Bentley was with a little over 550bhp.

Where did you get that number? According to http://www.mulsannescorner.com/bentleylmgtp03.html the Bentley Speed 8 had 615 bhp in 2003! Remember that in the LMP900/LMGTP days closed cars had bigger air restrictors.

A quick comparison on the engine rules of 2003 and 2011. Assuming a 2.0 turbo petrol engine

• LMP900: 2 x 30.7 mm, 3000 mbar boost
• LMGTP: 2 x 31.4 mm, 3360 mbar boost
• LMP1: 2 x 30.3 mm, 2500 mbar boost