TVR Griffiths 200/400 and their Chassis Numbers

[john ruston]

R T doing small club races?

Can't see it!

Good bloke but has had some odd cars.

[terence]

Originally Posted by richard tyzack

Dear John
Better late than never, if you are still compiling chassis records of TVR Griffiths then here is another one you may now add to your collection.
I have chassis 200/5/058.
An early round tail 200 series that I bought from Hayes Harris in the USA in about 2001.
The car was a mess with a totally rotten chassis, this we replaced with a Schirle chassis, luckily the bodywork was excellent as was the original engine which even now is on standard bore.
The gearbox was also fine, however we did all the usual suspension mods a la Granada and with FIA papers in hand we raced the car in the FIA GTS series and rallied it with great success in the blue ribband events in Europe.
When all the hooha blew up we changed the car back on to silly herald uprights and bearings etc to comply, this was in 2008, however as no one could find any period history of a 200 series round tail car with standard bodywork my HTP application was refused - twice! at some considerable expense, and i just felt it would be wrong to hack a lovely car to bits and stick on silly modsports bodywork.
Full credit to Nigel Ruben - he has done a fantastic job on the modsports lookalikes that are now de rigeur in FIA racing, so my dilemma is to let it sit in my garage or race it in club events but not in FIA events.
There you go, my moan is over, there does seem to be a little chink of light at the end of the tunnel, as there is a school of thought that standard cars MAY be elligible some time soon, my fingers are crossed.
Do you know who owns FDU 500C ??
Regards
Richard Tyzack

Seems totally ridiculous Richard,wasn't so long ago that the reverse happened to a Grantura-for NOT having the round tail. That did get sorted,eventually though. Who knows,perhaps the powers that be will change their minds.

[Thurner_fan]

In the case of THAT Grantura the owner would presumably have had to establish that his car that his car had (1) the correct (narrower) track of the pre-66 Mark III; and (2) that the engine was positioned correctly (i.e. not in the further forward position found on the post-65 MkIV). The Kamm or Manx tail was used on Granturas built both before (MkIII) and after (MKIII or MkIV) the 31 Dec 1965 cut off but other measurable features determine whether a car complies with the homologated specification for Appendix K racing or not.

Having said that, whether or not a Kamm-tailed MkIII Grantura ever raced in an International meeting in period is just as much of a question mark as whether a round-tailed Griffith ever did the same. The FIA's rules on bodywork silhouette seem, on the the hand, to be perfectly clear but, on the other hand, to be rather inconsistently applied in the case of TVRs. A source of great frustration for owners of both Griffiths and Granturas. Why can the FIA gurus not just say "Look, we don't really know what was going on in period but as long as your cars meet the mechanical specs laid down in the homologation papers you can run either the round-tail OR the Kamm/Manx-tailed bodywork"?

[John Turner]

Yes, quite right. All this debate over round tail or Kamm tail would be time better spent seeing them out on the track.

[Thurner_fan]

Originally Posted by richard tyzack

Thanks for the correct photos Stephan, it looks like i am sunk unless someone has a photo of the rounded tail in an International event, fingers crossed.

Richard, I cannot fathom why the FIA are taking such an inconsistent position as regards TVRs - Granturas and Griffiths. In the not so recent past they gave this Grantura an HTP even though it doesn't have the correct tail (i.e. no evidence of International competition in period) and was built in 1967 (although, of course, it may have since been 'corrected, to comply with pre-66 dimensions)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...00S&mid=251584

and there have been other Kamm-tailed Granturas given HTPs more recently.

But, as your experience illustrates a far tougher stance is being taken on Griffiths. Could it be because Griffiths have greater embarrassment potential for the traditional front runners in the pre-66 GT field?

We must respect the FIA's prerogative to be pedantic over the shape of the tails but we should insist that they are consistent in the application if their pedantry.

[terence]

The two years that a Griff won the 6Hr,there wasn't a GT 40 out there.Makes me wonder why people still think that throwing buckets of cash at them will turn them into a 6hr winner again,very little chance against what Vincent and Alain allow in these days,which is a great shame.

[john ruston]

What years did TVR win 6 hrs.

Don't think that what Alan and Vincent lets in is the difficulty it's the 16 secs a lap quicker than eight years ago with same cars.

All the able to do 2 42!

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Thurner_fan

Richard, I cannot fathom why the FIA are taking such an inconsistent position as regards TVRs - Granturas and Griffiths. In the not so recent past they gave this Grantura an HTP even though it doesn't have the correct tail (i.e. no evidence of International competition in period) and was built in 1967 (although, of course, it may have since been 'corrected, to comply with pre-66 dimensions)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...00S&mid=251584

and there have been other Kamm-tailed Granturas given HTPs more recently.

But, as your experience illustrates a far tougher stance is being taken on Griffiths. Could it be because Griffiths have greater embarrassment potential for the traditional front runners in the pre-66 GT field?

We must respect the FIA's prerogative to be pedantic over the shape of the tails but we should insist that they are consistent in the application if their pedantry.

I think there is some rule about production numbers that was invoked here. If I recall correctly once a certain number of cars have been produced with the homologated shape a subsequent body shape using the same underpinnings qualifies for the same HTP. Obviously this works for the Grantura but not for the Griffith as it doesn't apply retrospectively. Unfortunately I can't find the regs and I got bored reading AppK!

I'm sure this was covered in another thread.

[Thurner_fan]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

I think there is some rule about production numbers that was invoked here. If I recall correctly once a certain number of cars have been produced with the homologated shape a subsequent body shape using the same underpinnings qualifies for the same HTP. Obviously this works for the Grantura but not for the Griffith as it doesn't apply retrospectively. Unfortunately I can't find the regs and I got bored reading AppK!

I'm sure this was covered in another thread.

Yes, that rule has indeed been mentioned before, and in this thread actually. See post #198 for example.

However, I am not at all sure that it is obvious that this 'works' for the Grantura as the Mk3 1800 - the homologated model that all current racers build their cars to replicate - was only built in small numbers, maybe 30 to 40 from chassis numbers 9/660-ish to 9/700-ish. Then the Kamm-tail was introduced on the production line just before the end of 1965.

As has been suggested previously, it is possible that some manufacturers may have tried to make out that they had produced more than 100 of the original body shape. But, surely the modern FIA would make appropriate enquiry now before issuing HTPs for alternate body shapes especially, in this case, when there is no photographic evidence to support the alternate body shape having competed at an International meeting?

My position remains that I would like to see either rear body shape being acceptable for both Grantura and Griffith. It might encourage more cars to be prepared appropriately and out there racing, which is surely what we all really would like to see?

[Malcolm Smith]

Originally Posted by john ruston

What years did TVR win 6 hrs

Don't think that what Alan and Vincent lets in is the difficulty it's the 16 secs a lap quicker than eight years ago with same cars.

All the able to do 2 42!

TVR Victories

1995
WARD (GB) / CONOLEY (GB) / WILLIAMS (GB)
TVR Griffith
1996
WARD (GB) / CONOLEY (GB)
TVR Griffith

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

What years did TVR win 6 hrs.

Don't think that what Alan and Vincent lets in is the difficulty it's the 16 secs a lap quicker than eight years ago with same cars.

All the able to do 2 42!

95/96 Joe Ward/Chris Conoley. Two different cars.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Smith

TVR Victories

1995
WARD (GB) / CONOLEY (GB) / WILLIAMS (GB)
TVR Griffith
1996
WARD (GB) / CONOLEY (GB)
TVR Griffith

Thanks Malcolm.always good to keep the education standards up.

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

What years did TVR win 6 hrs.

Don't think that what Alan and Vincent lets in is the difficulty it's the 16 secs a lap quicker than eight years ago with same cars.

All the able to do 2 42!

Like I said,no GT40s/over developed Cobras etc etc,were present then. Only one Corvette out there which encountered numerous problems on both occasions. Unlike the recent events that have become a sports/racing car show. Even Mustangs were in their early redevelopment stages much the same as nearly all V8 engined stuff. E Types were still doing the kind of lap speeds they should have done but not much interest in them then.

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Like I said,no GT40s/over developed Cobras etc etc,were present then. Only one Corvette out there which encountered numerous problems on both occasions. Unlike the recent events that have become a sports/racing car show. Even Mustangs were in their early redevelopment stages much the same as nearly all V8 engined stuff. E Types were still doing the kind of lap speeds they should have done but not much interest in them then.

I don't think you can get back to the results for when Joe and Chris won any more - and Roy Stephenson's 1800 Grantura was 3rd in 2004 IIRC......but this link takes you to 2007

http://www.ris-timing.be/v2/archive/archive-2007/

In that year's Six Hours before the arms race with the V8s, there were two TVRs in the top 25, both Granturas and Nigel Reuben's fastest last lap in Johnson's car was a 3.06.9 for 8th place. There were five GTS11 cars in the top 15 and only 6 cars overall under 3 mins......this year 28 cars qualified under 3 mins and 63 were quicker than Nigel's time in the TVR in 2007

Amazing how much 'development' has made certain cars SO much faster.....or maybe it's the drivers

[terence]

Oddly enough,whilst clearing out the junk you seem to accumulate,I have just come across photos taken at the start of both years.If I get the time,I'll put them on here.By todays standards,the grids look quite small! I would put the lower lap times down to higher development cost's.

[Heightswitch]

In the interests of redressing the balance. I thought I would post to let you know that after 5 innaugral sessions and my first time behind the wheel of a Griff I managed a 1.28 at Anglesey coastal circuit.

It felt very rapid inside the car and I was elated after a very long self build to have finally completed my car.. the race footage makes me look like I am reversing through the field but in my defence...

I was on M sections of 10 year vintage
The other cars had about 100hp more on average
I was short shifting whilst bedding the engine in

Not all griffs are being built with an arms race in mind Some are still faithful to the concept of what they are. even if they are not Fia Elligible.

I will learn how to drive it next year without being too much of an emmbarassment and then hopefully come out to play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX71UXv5eA0

N.

[terence]

Its one of those cars that just looks right! Very nice.

[John Turner]

A dream realised - fantastic stuff!

[jellison]

[terence]

Sir! Sir! Look at that air intake!
I thought it was only CMS who could get away with that Jelly? So, thats adds another two with coforming w/arches.Both very nicely done chaps.HTPs anyone?

[Profdeuce]

Nice looking vehicle.

John Turner Question - I submitted my Griffith 400 chassis number to you a while back. How many griffith 400 chassis numbers have you identified at this time of the 59 produced?
Mine is 400-6-055.

[John Turner]

Some people have been very diffident about disclosing that information and I have been somewhat distracted with other motor racing activities. However, I'll put together a list and see what I can come up with.

[John Turner]

Crikey, had to look back 4 pages to find this thread. Given that Profdeuce (Remind me who you are, by PM, if you wish Pfd) has reawakened this one and that I started it back in 2009, I guess there might be some updating to do. Anyone care to inform of changes of ownership or new cars that have appeared?

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by terence

Sir! Sir! Look at that air intake!
I thought it was only CMS who could get away with that Jelly? So, thats adds another two with coforming w/arches.Both very nicely done chaps.HTPs anyone?

Jon's car is too mildly modified to be FIA legal

[Racingdenmark]

Originally Posted by Maza1

Hi !
If my memory serves , The Griffith 400 driven by Karl -Eric Roslund and under Schirle's maintenace was sold to Denmark after it won the championship.. DFV567C was its Licence Plate then. Run in European Tracks , and once in Finland at Ahvenisto Track.
Story goes that Schirle, as once working for TVR Factory , could say a lot about their specifications...


I wish this helps anyone interested in !

I can add to this post, that this car is still in Denmark. Has been standing in a museum ever since. But it is going to be raced again in 2017.

It still has the UK plate DFV567C

Regards
RD