MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[Mr Revhead]

In all seriousness, can someone please tell me who started the rumour im kerry Cooper? Id really like to know who it was, and why.

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by Club racer

Show us the figures or the communication - I don't believe that either. I can believe they may have been a bit slower than people liked paying the bills, but I bet they have paid if it is money they owe.

What's neat about this thread is that it can't be too far off the mark as it bringing them all out for a comment. That's good, but may be Brian should just comment and answer the very real questions from people paying his salary.

Revhead Kerry Cooper, Promax Julian Hardy and Straightline Geoff Short should refrain from winding people up whilst Brian answers the questions posed one by one. There is nothing unreasonable in that. At the moment every time a reasonable question is asked this lot come back with some rhetorical mightier than thou comment.

Please remember that even before V8ST - this lot were running up staggering levels of debt. That is not in dispute. So questions directed to them about that debt and how it came about are entirely reasonable.

It was in the club accounts that was sent out about 2 or 3 months ago. Didn't really say if it was unpaid bills or a loss that had occurred so may have been cleared I'm unsure.

I'm sure club racer if you sign up under your name he will answer questions.

[Sommersby]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

In all seriousness, can someone please tell me who started the rumour im kerry Cooper? Id really like to know who it was, and why.

Hi Warwick,

Obviously, your posts had/have a flavour of someone at some stage involved in TMC/MPL/MED(insolvency service).

That said, it does seem that your side of this argument cops some brutal flack at times, ,albeit some is deserved ( not personally however).

Ironically, the REAL Kerry Cooper is the only person to have fronted up after letting rip at me.

Maybe I'm old fashioned (and i know its not de rigueur in these forums) but only superheroes are worthy of a disguise...and that rules out any of us!

Shaun

[Mr Revhead]

To the best of my knowledge I've never even met the guy!
Not involved, just not seeing a lot of what has been said or implied.

I know full well what would happen if I wore my undies on the outside

[Bill Brown]

Member CCC asked why was TMC started?

TMC originally MotorRace NZ Ltd was start to overcome the aftermath of fly by night promotors who let our sport down at the last minute. The circuit owners and MSNZ had no option but to set up the company and move on.

The company had good and bad years but generally there was always a return for the shareholders.

I believe the sport will regret putting the company into receivership when a restructure would have kept motorsport promotion controled within the sport.

I dred the era of would be fly by night promoters getting amongst our sport again.

[socram]

I look forward to more posts from those in authority as many of us do not have a specific voice at Executive level or even at conference.

As a member of a marque club, with over 400 members, it just is not possible for one club representative to accurately vote on issues that may affect some but not all members. What might be good for racers may not be good for rallies; what is OK for competition cars used on the roads, may not be so good for pure racers; what works for the modern cars may not work for historics and classics etc. Equally, a club with no direct involvement in rallying or racing, has the power to cast a vote on issues that do not even affect them.

If I were to also rejoin TACCOC for example or join HRC, then who is to say that the club representative has even polled their own members? The plain fact is that in almost 30 years holding a competition licence in NZ and having been a member of three different clubs, not once have I been polled as to my stance on any issue, major or minor. That means that the person voting may or may not be voting on a personal level rather than what the members want.

So I have to be a pest and constantly harangue commission members on various issues, but even having polled the 150+ drivers on my list for their opinions and then having a fair bit of support, half a dozen commission members or MSNZ itself or even conference, outvotes the wishes of many drivers, and that simple fact does not endear many drivers (who are paying MSNZ for the right to race), to the organisation as a whole.

The promotion of Tier 1 events by MSNZ is of little interest to me as I do not accept that their programme is of any interest whatever, and do not believe they should be involved in promotion.

However. I do have issues (as do many others) that to be constantly knocked back with the mantra "Well why don't you attend conference then" when we don't even have a vote, is a constant frustration.

The other sport I have been involved in for many years has a simple enough formula, locally. For each 10 members you get a vote, so a club with 100 members has 10 votes and that could be 7 for and 3 against. All 10 do not have to go one way.

Rightly or wrongly, the perception for many of us is that any proposal can be derailed or passed, by votes from smaller clubs who are not directly involved in the issues. The best example of that is the to and fro regarding the CoD's for Classic Cars. One year it is compulsory, the next it is not and back again.

With the ease of on line voting, then I'd be rapt if major (or even minor) issues could be voted on by the membership and we took personalities with strong personal agendas and issues out of it. I have long recognised that many people on committees or executives are there to advance their own causes and are not really there to represent the rank and file. Some are dedicated to the real cause and work tirelessly of course.

I attended a MSNZ Wellington meeting of Series Convenors a few years ago and that was a a great meeting, representing everything from Muscle Cars to Minis and overall, there was major agreement on many many issues. But did we actually get a vote? No, of course not.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Member CCC asked why was TMC started?

TMC originally MotorRace NZ Ltd was start to overcome the aftermath of fly by night promotors who let our sport down at the last minute. The circuit owners and MSNZ had no option but to set up the company and move on.

The company had good and bad years but generally there was always a return for the shareholders.

I believe the sport will regret putting the company into receivership when a restructure would have kept motorsport promotion controled within the sport.

I dred the era of would be fly by night promoters getting amongst our sport again.

Bill, don't you think there is a message evolving out of the debacle of Global Promotions and now TMC? Perhaps commercial promotion of the so-called pinnacle of NZ motor sport needs to change it's template as it has been proved that the way it has been approached in the past doesn't work anymore. It is a bit like still trying to market B/W TV sets in the world of flat screen HD colour.
I have strong views that the national body should not be involved in commercial promotion in any way - they are a regulatory and administrative body and should stick to that. MSNZ is not obligated to organise championships - the National Sporting Code is clear on this matter.
There are many countries that have very successful motor racing series without the direct involvement of the sport's national body.

[Icarus_nz]

RogerH, thanks for the clarification
The difference of opinion is in the region of 650 - 1000 bodies. A significant amount in light of the revalation that in the past the gate at Tier 1 events has been a mean of 2000 people.

I agree with your comments re a stale format.
If you look at the attendance figures of the first 3 years of V8SC at Puke. Then the trend of (New Venue!) V8SC at Hamilton. Then think about A1GP and it attendance.

There is an interst in motorsport and fresh ideas is what gets the casual sportsfan in the gate

I guess ST are well aware of the need to create an ongoing 'buzz'. I would suggest that an Auckland 'Special Event' fits this category.

To be fair, since ST are totally unconcerned with NZ Gold Stars and the like, they have total flexibility. Promoting chamionship classes is in fact a form of constraint if you think about it.

[DX20VT]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

It was in the club accounts that was sent out about 2 or 3 months ago. Didn't really say if it was unpaid bills or a loss that had occurred so may have been cleared I'm unsure.

I'm sure club racer if you sign up under your name he will answer questions.

It was listed under doubtful debts,
and wasn't just a number in the list of accounts,
there was special mention of the doubtful debt,
the lack of payment, and the fact the ST had not made any indication the payment was coming.

[RogerH]

Crunch (Raymond Bennett - a Vice President of MSNZ) has written to me and asked that I post the following as he can't log onto 10/10ths.

Needless to say these are Crunch's views and not necessarily mine.


Hello; my name is Raymond Bennett and I am the VP of MSNZ.
I initially use to regularly check these types of forums and try to answer questions, but I guess the negativity and agression eventually got to me and I now don’t bother. I also encouraged Brian Budd to join to try to answer questions, but he to discovered the same and he has far more important things to do for the whole of the sport as opposed to answering questions that have either been answered before many times, or come from a personal level.

I also understand and read a comment regarding the “mantra of telling us we should go to conference and have our vote”…and I agree to some extent. However; that is the system we have at the moment, but it is only part of the system. The club structure may well be failing it’s members by not passing on communication, or indeed asking it’s members views in the first palce. When I was on the Manawatu Car Club Committee, every March we would have a committee meeting and any members could attend that was solely to dicuss remits to the AGCM or indeed, what the club needed the sport to do.

The following are my personal views and I must stress that.

I joined the MSNZ Exec in 1998. Just after the Motor Race NZ failure and the beginnings of TMC in it’s fledgling years (although I don’t think it was called that then). My background was in Rallying and Club Management. The Formula Brabham series was a disaster $$$wise, but lived longer than it should because those older than me determined the Grand Prix title needed them for value. I was of the view that Formula Ford would fill-the-gap until something (if anything) could be found that was cost-effective. Eventually Toyota NZ came to the rescue of the Grand Prix title with it’s success formula. The sport is indebted to them for that initiative. At the same time as F/Holden we had a struggling 2 litre touring car series that promised much but just didn’t deliver, again because of costs. So the conundrum back then, and one the sport is in at the moment is what would be cost effective to competitors, promoters and circuits alike? I understand the idea of TransAm lights was dreamed up between Kerry Cooper and Rob Lester on the hill one evening at Puke after a lack-lustre Championship meeting, and really gained traction with the buy in of people such as Gary Pedersen and Paul Manuell. It needed to involvement of people like them to take the idea and make it work. Trans Am lights evolved into NZV8’s over time and become a success to the public and more importantly to the competitors amoung us that had the $$$ wherewithall to be part of it. NZV8’s run solely by TMC for the first 4? Years was very successful and made a lot of $$$ which went back to the sport and circuits. Remember the circuits have always been a major player in TMC and the lameduck MPL.

But like anything successful in sport, be it motor-racing yachting or rugby, it becomes a victim of it’s own success. Everyone wants to be part of it, the transporters get bigger and all the “frilly-bits” to cost even more $$$ were being demanded. Along with this comes successful people in business who all have the right ideas to make this work even better!! Sometimes they do; but more often than not, those views were based primarily on what was good for them, next what was good for the class and lastly; if at all…what was good for the sport as a whole. This is where things started to go astray.

As a member of the Exec I trusted what was being reported to us both $$$ and strategic wise. But I think we made the big mistake of not selling the commercial rights sooner. I understand that it would have been so hard to let go of the child you had reared and nutured, and why would you when $$$ wise it was working. I personally lost sight of how the sport as a whole benefiting from the income, and eventually started to question why the show needed so much $$$ to take place? Why the 15 odd travelling officials and why all the extra fluff at the circuits. The answers were that is wat the competitors wanted. When the warning bells rung for me was when VEEGA was formed because I thought naievely at the time (and was told so) that this was because competitors were not happy. I was involved with a NZV8 team at the time, and the fierciest battles were happening in pit lane, not on the track. The ego’s were clashing and it was only a matter of time. I questioned the TMC report at Exec meetings but obviously not enough and frankly was tired of being told I didn’t understand the business of it. So I made the mistake of not persuing answers to questions $$$wise and person wise. In the end I could be flippant and say that many of the players in the whole scenario wanted to be the big fish in the little pond, and we know where that ends up, just look behind-the- scenes of Supercars. Everyone thought they had the right to “own and dictate” what should be happening, from both TMC/MSNZ and the V8 competitors. When I look back, the catalogue of small errors, big egos and a lot of commercial money blinded us all as to what we actually had. We didn’t have to try to copy Supercars, we didn’t have to have all the “fluff” in the pits like they do in the States, we didn’t have to have all the dedicated officials travelling. I felt out-of-place working on a NZV8 team that bought it’s car to the circuit on a 15 year old trailer!

So now to now; has the sport learnt the lessons? I don’t know. All I know is MSNZ has had discussions with V8Supertourers and they are at an impass now. I am frustrated that we have a similar model starting to happen where we have a class that will be affordable to only a few, yet it seems to dominate the sport in general. With the monied young aussies coming across to buy drives in V8ST, will there be any places for the “career path model”?
MSNZ should be governance only; but we need to look after and help our circuits, so we get caught up in someway with the commercial aspects to some degree as they have to be by definition commercial entities, to survive.

Sorry for the rambling, but I want to move forward now. V8ST are here a top class in saloon racing, and a great show. Is it affordable?...not my business. NZV8 have 50 odd cars in existence and they must be allowed a place to play has they provide a “career level step” and with the soon to be rare drive in V8ST scenario happening, will become popular with competitors again. They may not be the superstars of the NZ motor racing scene, but they are our members. For the reasons stated above; NZV8’s need to stay with the current rules and not look at changes that cost $$$. This year we won Challenge Cup, but the proposed changes for next year will make that car obsolete. Where is the sense in that?

As for the “new” NZV8, where to start? It is not ideal that the situation between the Board of NZV8 and V8ST deteriated so far as to appear in court, because now we have a legal stalemate. My humble opinion is the same as above; egos and emotion got in the way of clear thinking (by all involved). MSNZ also allowed a bit of emotion to show when it wanted to keep the NZV8 model going by instigating the new car. As humans we all “look to the past to clear our thinking path for the future” . So now we have 5 in existence and had firm expressions of another 10 to be built. I know some have withdrawn those expressions, but they are the current NZ Saloon Car Gold Star Championship. A palce will need to be found for these cars in the Championship, and it can be done with some level-headed thinking.

My mistakes in this whole process have been emotive thinking, a failure in pursueing my questioning at the Exec level even when I was a lone voice and possibly my socialist leanings of trying to please everybody. Where to from here? We need to get around the table with V8ST to restart the talks…currently awaiting their response. We need to ask the circuits what they want and need from MSNZ to be able to survive in the entertainment world. To thrive in the entertainment world is up to the circuits themselves. We need to ask potential competitors for NZ Championship level; what they actually want to drive…but we also have to ask all members what their view
Is of the benefits that top level Championship motorsport brings to them at club level. This I think will be the hardest as forums show time and time again that those answers primarilt centre around whats best for them, not the sport…but lets give it a go. One thing we cannot continue to do is to hark back to the bad times and keep rehashing it. It’s done; mistakes were made by all involved, we need to define a start point.

[promax]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

In all seriousness, can someone please tell me who started the rumour im kerry Cooper? Id really like to know who it was, and why.

club isn't worried about facts he's a mud slinger

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by promax

club isn't worried about facts he's a mud slinger

I know what I know and I'm more than happy with my own conclusions. And you guys deffo have a monopoly on the mud slinging!

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Bill, don't you think there is a message evolving out of the debacle of Global Promotions and now TMC? Perhaps commercial promotion of the so-called pinnacle of NZ motor sport needs to change it's template as it has been proved that the way it has been approached in the past doesn't work anymore. It is a bit like still trying to market B/W TV sets in the world of flat screen HD colour.
I have strong views that the national body should not be involved in commercial promotion in any way - they are a regulatory and administrative body and should stick to that. MSNZ is not obligated to organise championships - the National Sporting Code is clear on this matter.
There are many countries that have very successful motor racing series without the direct involvement of the sport's national body.

Roger, there was more than global causing problems at the time.

I dont think that there was not much wrong with the template when the product was fresh. Unfortunately it is a bit like black and white TVs.

We need to get everyone in the sport heading in the same direction. Build some bridges!

I know what your views are and what the sporting code says. I would prefer that we are better to have them in the cage looking out than running wild

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Roger, there was more than global causing problems at the time.

I dont think that there was not much wrong with the template when the product was fresh. Unfortunately it is a bit like black and white TVs.

We need to get everyone in the sport heading in the same direction. Build some bridges!

I know what your views are and what the sporting code says. I would prefer that we are better to have them in the cage looking out than running wild

Building bridges will be key and it is good to hear you say that. There are 100 plus cars running at Hampton Downs on Sunday - why doesn't someone come along and talk to the club guys and girls there and see what they think of the current situation? That would be a start would it not?

[promax]

Originally Posted by Club racer

I know what I know and I'm more than happy with my own conclusions. And you guys deffo have a monopoly on the mud slinging!

Julian is probably at Manfeild at the MG Meeting i'm not

your personal attacks on people that don't even belong to this forum is rather boring and pathetic. your accusations pretty much show what sort of person you are. instead of dragging in people that aren't even involved in the discussion.. why don't you introduce some actual facts into your posts

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by promax

Julian is probably at Manfeild at the MG Meeting i'm not

your personal attacks on people that don't even belong to this forum is rather boring and pathetic. your accusations pretty much show what sort of person you are. instead of dragging in people that aren't even involved in the discussion.. why don't you introduce some actual facts into your posts

LOL. And I mean that.

And I stand by everything I have said - period.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Club racer

Building bridges will be key and it is good to hear you say that. There are 100 plus cars running at Hampton Downs on Sunday - why doesn't someone come along and talk to the club guys and girls there and see what they think of the current situation? That would be a start would it not?

At least Crunch Bennett fronted up to the classic & historic guys up in Auckland (and probably the South island as well) a couple of years ago. I am not too sure that overall, the drivers totally agreed with his stance, but he gets full marks from me for initiating that meeting and we did get a turnout of about 120.

If the Classic & Historic Commission can do it, then surely a representative from the executive can? Without knocking Club Racer's suggestion, a race meeting isn't the best place to try and do anything, as too many people have their hands full. One on one chats are all very well, but a room full of people is a far better and far more open platform.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Roger, there was more than global causing problems at the time.

I dont think that there was not much wrong with the template when the product was fresh. Unfortunately it is a bit like black and white TVs.

We need to get everyone in the sport heading in the same direction. Build some bridges!

I know what your views are and what the sporting code says. I would prefer that we are better to have them in the cage looking out than running wild

There seems to be a bit of an attitudinal issue with some in the hierarchy of MSNZ that nothing is really wrong and those who dare criticise the status quo are unintelligent stirrers who want to kill motor sport (I have actually seen correspondence alluding to this stance).
I would think that the majority of people who post on this forum are motor sport enthusiasts (whether participants or observers) who care about the sport and the direction it has taken and the way it is heading. While not everyone agrees, in the main they are not posting just to pass the time or get involved in gratuitous aggravation.
There are many intelligent observations here from people who have a history in the sport and care about its future. While there are examples of rhetoric, emotion and playing the man and not the ball, it would be wrong to dismiss this forum on a wholesale basis as being nothing more than being based on a lack of knowledge, speculation, innuendo and bull****. Such a position is unfortunate and could be reflective of the attitudinal stance mentioned above - although I hope I am wrong.
BTW, I though that an "innuendo" was actually a brand of Italian suppositories .....

[Member CCC]

Originally Posted by RogerH

I think on reflection I didn't explain the situation clearly last night (it was around midnight).

The scenario is more like the circuits doing their figures for the proposed Tier 1 event taking into consideration all the costs and all the income (including their estimate of likely gate takings). The outcome is a loss for putting on the meeting of around $20,000 to $30,000. The issue then comes down to MSNZ (wearing it's Tier 1 promoters hat) taking the view that this loss could be made up as the circuit had (in their opinion) underestimated the gate takings.

It could have been read that my posting was suggesting that the total gate takings were $20,000 to $30,000 - that is not correct - this figure represents the difference between the circuit/club's view of gate takings considering the product on offer and MSNZ's view as the promoter of the Tier 1 Series.

The outcome could end up like Bill says - if the figures don't work out then the event doesn't happen.

Hi Roger can you please answer my questions to:
- What were the gate taking numbers that you quote are being disputed by the clubs?
- Don't most clubs/circuits take commercial risk when they organize events?
- My club were left with a debt from ST of over 70k.
- How does that model work?
- Why was TMC started?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Member CCC

Hi Roger can you please answer my questions to:
- What were the gate taking numbers that you quote are being disputed by the clubs?
- Don't most clubs/circuits take commercial risk when they organize events?
- My club were left with a debt from ST of over 70k.
- How does that model work?
- Why was TMC started?

See post #945 and 949

[Member CCC]

Originally Posted by RogerH

See post #945 and 949

Sorry Roger but your post's don't answer the questions.

You state: It could have been read that my posting was suggesting that the total gate takings were $20,000 to $30,000 - that is not correct - this figure represents the difference between the circuit/club's view of gate takings considering the product on offer and

This is in conflict to your previous post. So what are the disputed gate takings? Or don't you really know the facts?

And you have conveniently not answered the other questions.

My information after a couple of phone calls today tell me that only Hampton Downs can't make a Tier 1 event work (which doesn't surprise me with the financial state that they are in) but all the other clubs circuits are supporting the Tier 1 events for 2013.

Interesting how MSNZ are not taking financial risk for Tier 1 events this season which is what you have been implying that that is what you want, yet you still bag them!

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Member CCC

Sorry Roger but your post's don't answer the questions.

You state: It could have been read that my posting was suggesting that the total gate takings were $20,000 to $30,000 - that is not correct - this figure represents the difference between the circuit/club's view of gate takings considering the product on offer and

This is in conflict to your previous post. So what are the disputed gate takings? Or don't you really know the facts?

And you have conveniently not answered the other questions.

My information after a couple of phone calls today tell me that only Hampton Downs can't make a Tier 1 event work (which doesn't surprise me with the financial state that they are in) but all the other clubs circuits are supporting the Tier 1 events for 2013.

Interesting how MSNZ are not taking financial risk for Tier 1 events this season which is what you have been implying that that is what you want, yet you still bag them!

You have to read both posts to appreciate what I was getting at. The second post clarified what could have been a misinterpretation of the first post - I thought it was pretty clear and not a conflict.

I only answered the question you put in bold so your "conveniently didn't answer" comment is inappropriate.

To try and answer your other questions :

- I agree that most clubs/circuits take a commercial risk when organising events. The club I am a committee member of organises events so I am aware of the process. Most events are run against a history of previous similar events so a template is in place and there is a fair understanding of the costs, entry fee income, gate takings and resultant profit. The proposed Tier 1 events are a different animal as they have no ascertainable history and an uncertain product to be marketed to the public - accordingly the risk is greater due to the uncertainty and this no doubt reflects in the apprehension shown by some circuits/clubs.
- I have no specific knowledge of the ST event with your club so I can't offer any meaningful comment. I also have no knowledge of the ST model and as it is not promoted by MSNZ the financial implications are not as relevant to member clubs. From a general perspective an amount listed as a doubtful debt does not necessarily mean it is a loss. For example, it could be a debt where payment is in arrears, it could be a debt that is disputed by either party or it could be an unpaid debt that straddles a balance date.
- The generation of TMC was addressed Bill Brown's posts.

Are you absolutely sure MSNZ is not absorbing any financial risk with the promoting of Tier 1? Why are they establishing a budget for the promotion of Tier 1 if there is no financial exposure. Who pays the costs of the MSNZ team that are organising and promoting Tier 1 - is this not a financial exposure essentially borne by member cubs?

I have been consistent that MSNZ should not be involved in the commercial promotion of motor sport as a matter of principle - they are a regulatory and administrative body and should stick to those roles. My position has never been that they can promote commercial motor sport as long as they don't have a financial risk (or disguise the financial risk). The financial risk is one thing but the principle is more important - there is potential for conflict of interest if the governing body has an interest in the commercial promotion of the sport whether there is a financial exposure or not.
An example of this is the situation with ST. MSNZ is obligated under it's Constitution to encourage participation in motor sport (it is in fact the first listed objective in the Constitution). This obligation is non-selective. Irrespective of who is right and who is wrong in the VEEGA/ST matter (the Court will determine this), MSNZ are obligated to encourage the participation of ST. What appears to have happened is that MSNZ's shareholding in TMC and it's directorship on the VEEGA board has influenced it's position and it has arguably acted in conflict with it's constitutional obligation in order to protect the interests of it's commercial association with the NZV8 class. If it had no interest in the commercial promotion of the sport then it is likely that it would be ambivalent in the VEEGA/ST matter and this would accordingly be consistent with it's constitutional obligation to encourage participation in the sport on a non-selective basis.
So, I will still challenge MSNZ if they continue to take a commercial interest in the promotion of the sport irrespective of whether it includes exposure to a financial risk or not.
Of course it is your prerogative to take whatever stance you want on these matters.

[Mr Revhead]

I can't decide if roger sounds more like a lawyer or a politician

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

I can't decide if roger sounds more like a lawyer or a politician

Both of those could be interpreted as an insult .........

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Crunch (Raymond Bennett - a Vice President of MSNZ) has written to me and asked that I post the following as he can't log onto 10/10ths.

Needless to say these are Crunch's views and not necessarily mine.


Hello; my name is Raymond Bennett and I am the VP of MSNZ.
I initially use to regularly check these types of forums and try to answer questions, but I guess the negativity and agression eventually got to me and I now don’t bother. I also encouraged Brian Budd to join to try to answer questions, but he to discovered the same and he has far more important things to do for the whole of the sport as opposed to answering questions that have either been answered before many times, or come from a personal level.

I also understand and read a comment regarding the “mantra of telling us we should go to conference and have our vote”…and I agree to some extent. However; that is the system we have at the moment, but it is only part of the system. The club structure may well be failing it’s members by not passing on communication, or indeed asking it’s members views in the first palce. When I was on the Manawatu Car Club Committee, every March we would have a committee meeting and any members could attend that was solely to dicuss remits to the AGCM or indeed, what the club needed the sport to do.

The following are my personal views and I must stress that.

I joined the MSNZ Exec in 1998. Just after the Motor Race NZ failure and the beginnings of TMC in it’s fledgling years (although I don’t think it was called that then). My background was in Rallying and Club Management. The Formula Brabham series was a disaster $$$wise, but lived longer than it should because those older than me determined the Grand Prix title needed them for value. I was of the view that Formula Ford would fill-the-gap until something (if anything) could be found that was cost-effective. Eventually Toyota NZ came to the rescue of the Grand Prix title with it’s success formula. The sport is indebted to them for that initiative. At the same time as F/Holden we had a struggling 2 litre touring car series that promised much but just didn’t deliver, again because of costs. So the conundrum back then, and one the sport is in at the moment is what would be cost effective to competitors, promoters and circuits alike? I understand the idea of TransAm lights was dreamed up between Kerry Cooper and Rob Lester on the hill one evening at Puke after a lack-lustre Championship meeting, and really gained traction with the buy in of people such as Gary Pedersen and Paul Manuell. It needed to involvement of people like them to take the idea and make it work. Trans Am lights evolved into NZV8’s over time and become a success to the public and more importantly to the competitors amoung us that had the $$$ wherewithall to be part of it. NZV8’s run solely by TMC for the first 4? Years was very successful and made a lot of $$$ which went back to the sport and circuits. Remember the circuits have always been a major player in TMC and the lameduck MPL.

But like anything successful in sport, be it motor-racing yachting or rugby, it becomes a victim of it’s own success. Everyone wants to be part of it, the transporters get bigger and all the “frilly-bits” to cost even more $$$ were being demanded. Along with this comes successful people in business who all have the right ideas to make this work even better!! Sometimes they do; but more often than not, those views were based primarily on what was good for them, next what was good for the class and lastly; if at all…what was good for the sport as a whole. This is where things started to go astray.

As a member of the Exec I trusted what was being reported to us both $$$ and strategic wise. But I think we made the big mistake of not selling the commercial rights sooner. I understand that it would have been so hard to let go of the child you had reared and nutured, and why would you when $$$ wise it was working. I personally lost sight of how the sport as a whole benefiting from the income, and eventually started to question why the show needed so much $$$ to take place? Why the 15 odd travelling officials and why all the extra fluff at the circuits. The answers were that is wat the competitors wanted. When the warning bells rung for me was when VEEGA was formed because I thought naievely at the time (and was told so) that this was because competitors were not happy. I was involved with a NZV8 team at the time, and the fierciest battles were happening in pit lane, not on the track. The ego’s were clashing and it was only a matter of time. I questioned the TMC report at Exec meetings but obviously not enough and frankly was tired of being told I didn’t understand the business of it. So I made the mistake of not persuing answers to questions $$$wise and person wise. In the end I could be flippant and say that many of the players in the whole scenario wanted to be the big fish in the little pond, and we know where that ends up, just look behind-the- scenes of Supercars. Everyone thought they had the right to “own and dictate” what should be happening, from both TMC/MSNZ and the V8 competitors. When I look back, the catalogue of small errors, big egos and a lot of commercial money blinded us all as to what we actually had. We didn’t have to try to copy Supercars, we didn’t have to have all the “fluff” in the pits like they do in the States, we didn’t have to have all the dedicated officials travelling. I felt out-of-place working on a NZV8 team that bought it’s car to the circuit on a 15 year old trailer!

So now to now; has the sport learnt the lessons? I don’t know. All I know is MSNZ has had discussions with V8Supertourers and they are at an impass now. I am frustrated that we have a similar model starting to happen where we have a class that will be affordable to only a few, yet it seems to dominate the sport in general. With the monied young aussies coming across to buy drives in V8ST, will there be any places for the “career path model”?
MSNZ should be governance only; but we need to look after and help our circuits, so we get caught up in someway with the commercial aspects to some degree as they have to be by definition commercial entities, to survive.

Sorry for the rambling, but I want to move forward now. V8ST are here a top class in saloon racing, and a great show. Is it affordable?...not my business. NZV8 have 50 odd cars in existence and they must be allowed a place to play has they provide a “career level step” and with the soon to be rare drive in V8ST scenario happening, will become popular with competitors again. They may not be the superstars of the NZ motor racing scene, but they are our members. For the reasons stated above; NZV8’s need to stay with the current rules and not look at changes that cost $$$. This year we won Challenge Cup, but the proposed changes for next year will make that car obsolete. Where is the sense in that?

As for the “new” NZV8, where to start? It is not ideal that the situation between the Board of NZV8 and V8ST deteriated so far as to appear in court, because now we have a legal stalemate. My humble opinion is the same as above; egos and emotion got in the way of clear thinking (by all involved). MSNZ also allowed a bit of emotion to show when it wanted to keep the NZV8 model going by instigating the new car. As humans we all “look to the past to clear our thinking path for the future” . So now we have 5 in existence and had firm expressions of another 10 to be built. I know some have withdrawn those expressions, but they are the current NZ Saloon Car Gold Star Championship. A palce will need to be found for these cars in the Championship, and it can be done with some level-headed thinking.

My mistakes in this whole process have been emotive thinking, a failure in pursueing my questioning at the Exec level even when I was a lone voice and possibly my socialist leanings of trying to please everybody. Where to from here? We need to get around the table with V8ST to restart the talks…currently awaiting their response. We need to ask the circuits what they want and need from MSNZ to be able to survive in the entertainment world. To thrive in the entertainment world is up to the circuits themselves. We need to ask potential competitors for NZ Championship level; what they actually want to drive…but we also have to ask all members what their view
Is of the benefits that top level Championship motorsport brings to them at club level. This I think will be the hardest as forums show time and time again that those answers primarilt centre around whats best for them, not the sport…but lets give it a go. One thing we cannot continue to do is to hark back to the bad times and keep rehashing it. It’s done; mistakes were made by all involved, we need to define a start point.

Raymond "Crunch"
Congratulations on having the courage to post your thoughts on this Forum.

Just need to clear up one point, you do seem to have forgotten the brief discussion you and I had at Pukekohe, over were the 'ball lay' Its absolutely not true to say that you MSNZ, are waiting our response. We in fact tabled four fundamental issues, that needed changes to MSNZ rules and regulations, to both you and Brian Budd.

Thus far, we have not had a formal reply, nor a request from MSNZ to sit around a table and debate these issues, so in fact it is us, V8ST, that await MSNZ response.

Mark Petch.
Managing Director,
V8 Supertourers Limited.