Rolling starts the way to go?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

So, to paraphrase, you tell 'em something at briefing which is not backed up by the Blue Book, and then don't necessarily enforce it? Am I alone in finding that confusing? Would you be happy that the good guys lose out and those that bend the rule (break the rule?) get the advantage?

Not quite what I'm saying David. The Blue Book is not specific enough on this point, except for karting but I think those rules have some merit. I have enforced what I've briefed from time to time, where there has been clear unfair advantage or there's been a safety issue and nobody's ever appealed or, to my memory, even dissented. As I've already said, I'm happy to debate this issue but I've been using the criteria in historic racing rolling starts for a number of years (including some European series) and it seems to have been accepted and even welcomed by competitors.

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by johngee

Not quite what I'm saying David. The Blue Book is not specific enough on this point, except for karting but I think those rules have some merit. I have enforced what I've briefed from time to time, where there has been clear unfair advantage or there's been a safety issue and nobody's ever appealed or, to my memory, even dissented. As I've already said, I'm happy to debate this issue but I've been using the criteria in historic racing rolling starts for a number of years (including some European series) and it seems to have been accepted and even welcomed by competitors.

i can see merit in this form of starting, and indeed if it is applied to an endurance race of 2 hours or so, the two variations on start would probably have a negliable effect on the result, but for us clubbies doing a race which could be as short as 6 or 8 mins, the no overtaking start would have drastic consequences on the race outcome

[johngee]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

i can see merit in this form of starting, and indeed if it is applied to an endurance race of 2 hours or so, the two variations on start would probably have a negliable effect on the result, but for us clubbies doing a race which could be as short as 6 or 8 mins, the no overtaking start would have drastic consequences on the race outcome

Fair comment Graham. Most of the rolling starts I do are for 30 minute plus races or for cars which are very difficult to grid up and get off the line e.g. older F1 and F5000 cars.

[midgetman]

>>>>>>Am I alone in finding that confusing?

No you're not David, and this is my very point. I said there's a problem if rules vary from track to track. Wow, this means the rules vary between briefing and race!

So John if one accelerates hard and closes up the gap before the startline but actually overtakes after it, is that OK? That means when I hit the line I'm doing 30mph more than my colleagues, should vault me up the grid nicely.

But then you've said there's no racing before the line which I'm clearly doing as I gain an advantage, so I should get penalised? I just don't know. Maybe if I bought you a pint beforehand you won't penalise me?

John, I'm not impugning your personal integrity in the slightest, just pointing out how you're leaving yourself wide open to criticism.

And just because no-one's protested, doesn't mean no-one's dis-satisfied. You know us English, great whingers behind the boss's back!

John, I totally agree with your interpretation of the rule and would have no problem with accepting it but the problem is with consistency. It should be the same wherever, with whoever is in charge.

[carsten.meurer]

standing start is the way to go !

why ?

because its procedure i A - consistet and its B the fairest way to get under
way !

i see all the positive points to rolling starts, problem is, i have never seen a
really well executed indy start, with a well positioned grid and a proper slow
pace right to the line and the green light !

ok, i do admitt that i will alway be seeking any advantage i can get !
and if i put it on pole, i am not willing to loose it before the green !
so knowing that the COC is in a pretty bad position, i accelerate whenever i
want to - the COC NEEDS to put the green on, as he is short on time !
no red flag or additional green flag lap possible !
also a penalty is very unlikely, as its too much fuzz for a clibbie event...

never had a COC forbidding overtaking before the line yet, was more about
what speed they accept, or where acceleration can begin where the diffs
were.

especially behind in the pack i always see people that daydream under
safety car or towards a rolling start 1 really big gaps in the grid !
its just not fair to be stuck behind one of those guys !

you have been fast in practise ? you should be able to make a start as good
as you can, not compromised by others !

in a ideal world though, i do agree that the sound of a perfectly executed
rolling start hold many positive points ! if only there was some sportsmanship
and respect left...

[dtype38]

Gotta support johngee on this one. I like the idea that he makes the rules clear, then uses his dicression in how strictly to enforce them when they are "interpreted". I suspect that in most cases there is little material difference to the eventual outcome of his "longer" race. Probably the worst damage that happens is to the dignity of a driver who feels they got "jumped" at the start. I can see Graham's point though. Coming from sprint kart racing myself I know how important it can be to "push the boundary" of the CoC's patience when it comes to jump starts

Going back to the "lights out and go for it" type of rolling start. I can see the possiblility of some one fluffing a gear change, although I think its much less likely than some one spinning up/bogging down/stalling on a standing start. But surely if the rules are applied as jonhgee suggests, then no one is going to be trying to change gear before the line... so the chances are there won't be any problems at all (IMO).

[midgetman]

My last post written in haste, maybe a bit harsh, but written with experience as CoC at a commercial kart track. (Not that we used rolling starts)

I soon learned NOT to exercise discretion but that sticking by an absolute law meant everyone knew where they stood. Believe me, never mind a woman scorned hell hath no fury like a karting dad who thinks discretion has been used against his budding world champion. (Or karting mum come to think of it)

But the main point still stands, for goodness sake let's have some consistency so we know where we are.

That said, my vote's on the standing start. Much more exciting, and the chance to spring a surprise. And clearer.

[Eddy V]

My vote is for standing starts as well. Not only for the fairness, but to me a lot safer. But that's maybe another view for some people. I loved the standing starts and the rush towards the first corner.

What I do not like about rolling starts is the fact that some tracks punish the "midfielders/backmarkers", ie when you have a slow last corner. The first cars are well on their way when the last ones still go round that corner.

Example.
Brands: Indy okay-ish, GP no problem.
Combe: no problem.
Snetterton or Thruxton: big problem I'd say.

[Al Weyman]

Well seeing as I wrote someones shell off at a startline incident at Snett I can't really agree with that. If everyone closes up as they should with a roller it should be no problem, actually in the last of the three starts we did at the Rock the othe weekend I noticed the cars behind me got strung out a bit and when the lights went out they simply disappeared never to be seen again, don't quite know what happen there but suspect someone was slowing up the lower order.

I personally think overtaking must be allowed as soon as the lights go out anything else seems a bit daft to me, I have started at the back of the grid in the past when penalised for something or other and made up half a dozen places by the start line and thats in a conventional start.

[Eddy V]

That is the problem Al, if they all stayed together it would be okay and the layout of the track doesn't always help. I'm not against rolling starts, it is just not my thing.

Great time saver though for Race Control.

The overtaking starts, in my humble opinion, when the lights go green.

[johngee]

Some really interesting points have been made and given me some food for thought. I wish I could say, with conviction, that I was always right but an important element of my role in racing is to give competitors "a damn good listening to"! I still like rolling starts but I think we need a bit more consistancy to get them right and perhaps, they're not always the answer. I realise that I'm really lucky in the racing that I clerk where, in the interests of the competitors and the sport, I'm able to exercise degrees of discretion, which are understood and accepted. Perhaps that approach is not appropriate for all categories of racing.