History of the Gibson Nissan GTR

[GTRMagic]

The Nissan did "pig root" initially, when they first ran the thing with what looked to be a "too hard" suspension option... maybe it felt ok to the drivers, but the thing bunnyhopped in the rear quite badly... on debut with Mr Skaife at the wheel the GT-R most certainly did that....

The issue eventually got tuned out...

The beauty of AWD is the traction out of corners... the difference between the AWD Magna and the FWD one is amazing... the FWD one feels more lively because it is lighter, but the AWD one you can line up the bend, hit the loud pedal and the corner speed is significantly better, which helps hit the speed limit sooner

The Audi quattro Supertourer was similar... except it didnt have an almost limitless power supply like the Nissan did (with 1200 hp possible for the cap backward brigade in street form, imagine how much Mr Gibson's boys could have achieved unrestricted!!)

Nissan KnowHow... Come Alive. Come and Drive. Nissan!

[ajrichar]

One can only really compare a vehicle like the GT-R with its contemporaries.
And in that regard, it was so far ahead of its competition that it is no wonder Group A died.....

The comment about the Gibson Group A GT-R and the GTHO Falcon is quite absurd. Both were cars that offered superior performance in their day on road and on track.

It is of course of great interest how the Gibson cars would compare with race vehicles from more recent eras, but unless Terry Ashwood or Lindsay Fox allow their cars out to be thrashed, against a modern V8 Supercar (and let's face it, which team would allow that to happen), so much will remain conjecture.

We do know that the modern V8 Supercars are some way faster than the Group A GT-R in most/all circuits, and well they ought to be too.... How much of a gap is what really interests me personally, but I believe it will remain hypothetical.

[Sultan]

I can definitely understand Skaifes views on the GTR. AWD cars, generally speaking, are inherant understeerers, & their setups are more akin to FWD than RWD, hence the rear end bounce (just watch a wrx or evo around a track, the inside rear spends more time in the ir than on the ground!)

Godzilla was a weapon because of its ability to put all it's power down, not for its handling...

[Raglanparade]

What you would need to do would get a 2007 Model Skyline in Group A tuning vs a 2007 V8 VE Commodore Supercar.

The skyline would win hands down.

[monaroCountry]

One can only really compare a vehicle like the GT-R with its contemporaries.
And in that regard, it was so far ahead of its competition that it is no wonder Group A died.....

So why did group A die in Europe?

Fact is group A was getting too expensive and the format wasn’t working. It had nothing to do with the GTR.

I wouldn’t mind seeing the upcoming GTR getting it’s a$$ handed to it by the blue devil corvette and other supercars.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

So why did group A die in Europe?

Fact is group A was getting too expensive and the format wasn’t working. It had nothing to do with the GTR.

Other than the GTR epitomised the very reason Gp A got too expensive - it changed the nature of hot-rodding 500 homologations specials, simply by being a far better mousetrap than anything that had gone before... and anything anyone else was willing to build (although the RS Escort would've been an interesting bit of kit...)

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

I wouldn’t mind seeing the upcoming GTR getting it’s a$$ handed to it by the blue devil corvette and other supercars.

How likely is it that a Corvette is going to hand a GTR anything?

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

So why did group A die in Europe?

Fact is group A was getting too expensive and the format wasn’t working. It had nothing to do with the GTR.

I wouldn’t mind seeing the upcoming GTR getting it’s a$$ handed to it by the blue devil corvette and other supercars.

But a GTR isnt really comparable with a Corvette either. Corvette's a GT. GT-R, being a souped up Skyline, is closer to a Muscle/Touring car.

Group A wasn't too expensive, the advent of Group 3A only dropped costs slightly. Group A problems were elsewhere.

Group A died in Europe because of the Sierra RS500. It did to European Group A what the GT-R did here. Why the difference? Because in Europe there wasn't an effective team punting the GTS-R R-31 Skyline like there was here, or for that matter a factory BMW M3 Evo program that was working. BMW had already moved on to DTM and the embroyonic Super Touring.

Here the R31 Skyline could take the fight to the Sierras, and the Commodores weren't ridiculously out of the park, as Bathurst 1990 showed, and the Evo II (DTM influenced) M3 was on the way. The R-32 evolved basically after the death of European Group A, but with Australian and Japanese Group A still strong-ish there was an environment for the car to run.

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

The R-32 evolved basically after the death of European Group A, but with Australian and Japanese Group A still strong-ish there was an environment for the car to run.

In Australia at least, there may have been an 'environment' to run it in, but with the death of Group A in Europe, it was already on its last legs here. The Sierra was replaced by the Front drive Mondeo, so no 'hero' Ford to run down here anymore, BMW moving on so not much left.

In my view, the GTR wasn't the reason for the death of Group A down under. IIRC, plans were already underway to replace it a year or too before it changed to essentially V8's only.

[GTRMagic]

If you take Leon Daphne's view (Nissan head honcho...) the CAMS regulators were out to nobble the GT-R for their own purposes.

I recall the Nissan marketing department took some delight in advertising with a slogan similar to "the car so fast they had to legislate it from existence..."

We had some really magic cars down this end of the world, those GT-Rs were cutting edge in many ways, and probably didnt get developed to within an inch of their lives engine-wise because there was no real need. I recall also that an engine change in one of them was like 6 hours long! It would be an incentive for the builders not to push the edge of performance for if you blew one up it would be a looooooooooooooong rectification time

[Henry]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

If you take Leon Daphne's view (Nissan head honcho...) the CAMS regulators were out to nobble the GT-R for their own purposes.

I recall the Nissan marketing department took some delight in advertising with a slogan similar to "the car so fast they had to legislate it from existence..."

We had some really magic cars down this end of the world, those GT-Rs were cutting edge in many ways, and probably didnt get developed to within an inch of their lives engine-wise because there was no real need. I recall also that an engine change in one of them was like 6 hours long! It would be an incentive for the builders not to push the edge of performance for if you blew one up it would be a looooooooooooooong rectification time

Given that the Marsden and then Gibbo's local teams were largely responsible for the global homologation of the Skylines, the expertise here shouldn't really come as a surprise.

I chuckled when I heard the story of how the power-that-be went to Fred Gibson looking for ways to bring Godzilla back to the pack... Gibson made some token suggestions on pop-off valves and the like... methods and means which never really nobbled the things at all...

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Group A died in Europe because of the Sierra RS500. It did to European Group A what the GT-R did here. Why the difference? Because in Europe there wasn't an effective team punting the GTS-R R-31 Skyline like there was here, or for that matter a factory BMW M3 Evo program that was working. BMW had already moved on to DTM and the embroyonic Super Touring.

Here the R31 Skyline could take the fight to the Sierras, and the Commodores weren't ridiculously out of the park, as Bathurst 1990 showed, and the Evo II (DTM influenced) M3 was on the way. The R-32 evolved basically after the death of European Group A, but with Australian and Japanese Group A still strong-ish there was an environment for the car to run.

To an extent that is true, but the fundamental reason Group A died was the FIA.

Things like the stupid registration costs for the 1987 WTCC, then canning it after one year, canning the ETCC at the end of the next year etc, plus their constant pushing for Bernie's "PROCAR" idea for touring cars didn't help people's confidence....

The manufacturers were still interested, the 1988 ETCC, even after the shambles of the 1987 WTCC, still featured factory entries from Ford, BMW, Nissan & Toyota.

BMW had had a prescence in DTM since the series inception in 1984. And besides the DTM rules from 1984-1992 were Group A, just they used parity adjustments to equalize the performance of the Sierra's, BMW's, Mercedes 190E's etc (and Ford were so unhappy about the 'parity rules' that they withdrew from the DTM at the end of 1990, saying that it was pointless to build a good car and then be penalised for it)...... the likes of the 2.5ltr Evo BMW M3 seen in Australia in 1991 & 1992 by Longhurst was still a Group A car

[amier]

Originally Posted by Chucky

In order for an R34 GTR (in NC guise) to even be equal to a V8 Superbus. it would be 2-3 sec quicker than the rest of the NC field and would therefore be paritised into oblivion.

While I am not defending the dinosaur brigade, I can't see a GTR doing that.

One such car than possibly can

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9YEFEkAvJk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XHlY6u5m9M

[Senna05]

Gp A was the category where you could build a car to beat the competition....

BMW got it right. Then Ford murdered them. And then Nissan came along and just pounded the murderers....

Holden definitely improved along th way, but the pushrod engine just didn't have the grunt the Nissan did. That, and it had to be pushed 200% to catch it...

I am a Holden man, but that GTR was just amazing! I loved watching it.

[amier]

Falken R34 GTR, some 550 BHP an quicker than the R32 GR.A this im sue would be math for the new OZ supertourers with its lazy rev engines.

[Silver 3]

The R 32,R33.R34 are all eligible for the Australian Sports/GT Intermarque Championship 2007----- http://www.intermarque.net

[ajrichar]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

I wouldn’t mind seeing the upcoming GTR getting it’s a$$ handed to it by the blue devil corvette and other supercars.

Not a fan of the GT-R, huh?

[Senna05]

I must admit, I have a good chuckle when the "fly boys" around Newcastle buy an awesome piece of kit in the later model GTR's, and then don't know how to drive them. They constantly are coming into work, blowing clutches or making alot of engine smoke trying to impress people.

It's even funnier when they line up next to a GTS Monaro and get smoked due to poor driver skill. One thing I've learned is if an older guy is driving a nice car, they usually know how to drive the bloody thing!

It makes me sad to see these awesome cars being in the hands of someone who couldn't drive a VW.

[Senna05]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRJjN-wJzHA

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

In Australia at least, there may have been an 'environment' to run it in, but with the death of Group A in Europe, it was already on its last legs here. The Sierra was replaced by the Front drive Mondeo, so no 'hero' Ford to run down here anymore

Forgotten the Escort RS 4WD turbo (later seen in the WRC) Dick Johnson imported into the country in 1991?

[monaroCountry]

Not a fan of the GT-R, huh?

I know its history and its capabilities BUT there are far better and more deserving cars. The GTR myth has grown as it passes one fanboi to another.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by simon5574

A winner almost by default one would say...
Only because Gibsons cars were 'unsafe' to compete at the new minimum required weight....
Mind you, there was a number of Freds staff 'lending a hand to that GIO car that day

In regards to potential developement, there was absolutely miles left in those things.
There was not too many GTR failures due to the fact the cars were simply not stressed, unlike a Sierra or Commy etc

Heck, the thing almost lapped half the field on debut at Mallala before succumbing to new car teething problems with the wheeel hubs.

It was the Lakeside ATCC round where the weight issue boycott blow-up ocurred, and it was the GIO Nissan that boycotted, replaced for the day with the old VN.

GMS weren't at the Sandown 500 because they never intended to be at the Sandown 500. They didn't front in 1990, 1991 or 1993 either.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by racer69

To an extent that is true, but the fundamental reason Group A died was the FIA.

Things like the stupid registration costs for the 1987 WTCC, then canning it after one year, canning the ETCC at the end of the next year etc, plus their constant pushing for Bernie's "PROCAR" idea for touring cars didn't help people's confidence....

The manufacturers were still interested, the 1988 ETCC, even after the shambles of the 1987 WTCC, still featured factory entries from Ford, BMW, Nissan & Toyota.

BMW had had a prescence in DTM since the series inception in 1984. And besides the DTM rules from 1984-1992 were Group A, just they used parity adjustments to equalize the performance of the Sierra's, BMW's, Mercedes 190E's etc (and Ford were so unhappy about the 'parity rules' that they withdrew from the DTM at the end of 1990, saying that it was pointless to build a good car and then be penalised for it)...... the likes of the 2.5ltr Evo BMW M3 seen in Australia in 1991 & 1992 by Longhurst was still a Group A car

Group A did survive the FIA, but the problem was the RS500 Sierra was that much better than even the R31 Skyline and the Evo M3 that Group A had become a privateers championship. The key to touring car success is manufacturer involvement and only Nissan was still interested in developing Group A once the 90's began. Germany and Britain each went their own ways devising classes to drag the manufacturers in, both with success. As DTM and Super Touring grew Group A stagnated, and eventually everyone hopped off, keen to get into the new best thing.

Around 12 months after Europe went their own way Australia decided they had to as well but the new class would not be implemented until 1993, some two to three years behind the European trend. During the uncertainty period Dick Johnson imported a 4wd Escort Cossie as a potential Godzilla antidote, but abandoned development as Group 3A firmed up.

In Japan, Group A eventually evolved and merged with some production sports racers to become the current Japan GT regs.

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Forgotten the Escort RS 4WD turbo (later seen in the WRC) Dick Johnson imported into the country in 1991?

I knew of this car (although not aware DJ had imported one), there was also the Cossie Sierra Saphire 4WD which may have been a better choice.

As you say though, manufacturer involvement is the key and neither the Escort RS or Cossie Sierra 4wd had manufacturer support in Group A, which would have left the likes of DJ/Seto etc well out on a limb still.

[Seton Fanatic]

There was a fair chance in the 1991 Sandown 500, that had Glenn Seton's car not expired, the Gibbs/Onslow car may not have won the race. My recollection of what I have read of the race, is that Seton was gaining enough time to catch the Gibbs/Onlsow GTR, which was not in a healthy state.

Gibson Motosport also didn't compete in the 1992 Sandown 500, as well. I don't think the Bob Forbes GIO GTR was there as well, nor was the Commodore there either.

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Group A did survive the FIA, but the problem was the RS500 Sierra was that much better than even the R31 Skyline and the Evo M3 that Group A had become a privateers championship. The key to touring car success is manufacturer involvement and only Nissan was still interested in developing Group A once the 90's began. Germany and Britain each went their own ways devising classes to drag the manufacturers in, both with success. As DTM and Super Touring grew Group A stagnated, and eventually everyone hopped off, keen to get into the new best thing.

Around 12 months after Europe went their own way Australia decided they had to as well but the new class would not be implemented until 1993, some two to three years behind the European trend. During the uncertainty period Dick Johnson imported a 4wd Escort Cossie as a potential Godzilla antidote, but abandoned development as Group 3A firmed up.

In Japan, Group A eventually evolved and merged with some production sports racers to become the current Japan GT regs.

Thanks for all this, Mark. Your knowledge of motorsport as a whole is pretty damn impressive.

Anyne who didn't know better would think you lived as a hermit in a cave, ran a solar powered computer on wireless broadband with a drift net in the nearby river to catch fish to eat to give you the time to research our great sport to the depths of knowledge that you have.

All of us, of course, know different