[BTCC] Silverstone National Rds. 25/26/27

[Adamcas87]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

that's ******** smells like title fixing

Yeah, You and V8 Supes are the same person

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

time running out

and none of the drivers wants to continue


AFAIK a result cannot be declared because 50% of the race has not been completed

50% race distance is nowhere in the rules.

Races can be declared null and void, or reduced in length.
Reduced in length races still carry full points (no matter how much they are reduced by).

[porsche962fan]

^ commentators were mentioning that you need 50% race distance to have results and that for 50% to 75% race distance half points

[psq43]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

^ commentators were mentioning that you need 50% race distance to have results and that for 50% to 75% race distance half points

Correct. 75% for full points, 50-75% half points. At the time they'd suspended the race, they'd done 36% so null and void.

[geordiecriag101]

Just back from a rather wet Silverstone. Just to clear up a few points, Alan Hyde mentionned that the curfew was 6:30pm so that left plenty time to get the race run. Had the weather front not moved in about an hour earlier that was predicted, they were going to re-run the F4 race that was red flagged in the morning after the final touring car race.

[crmalcolm]

My mistake - I was only looking at 1.6.9 - 'Should any Round be reduced in length at the discretion of the BTCC Clerk (after consultation with the Administrator), full points will still be awarded (but not for each part of a two part Race) unless the Race is declared null and void in accordance with 3.8.2.d'

I should have checked 3.8:
'For races that have completed between 50% and 75% (inclusive) of the original Race Distance, 50% of the normal Championship points will be allocated.'


Which means - before the race starts, it can be reduced in length and still have full points.
Once a race has started, if between 50% and 75% of laps are completed, then half points are awarded.

There is a slight loophole though in 3.8.2.b - under this regulation the race can be stopped (as it was) and then restarted with a new length of less than 50% and still have points awarded.

[Jon411]

Really looking forward to the final round with Jake and Tom level on points (and therefore hybrid). I just hope the championship is decided by the racing on track and not down to an accident involving one of them.

Outside of the top 2, Ash is going to be going all out and Colin should be fast also given he will have a decent amount of hybrid for qualifying and the first race so think we are in for some great racing.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

that's ******** smells like title fixing

Hill received the penalty for gaining an unfair advantage in a contact with Cammish. That is a legitimate penalty; plenty of other drivers this season have also been penalised for similar infractions. Push to pass in no longer permitted.

There was a last gasp attempt to pass by Sutton on Ingram on the final corner of the last lap when he accidentally tapped him; it was noticeable that Sutton did not try to take advantage when he could quite easily have done so.

Also of note, Hill was not penalised for his actions during his pass on Huff; he just received a verbal reprimand.

[TinTopGrumpy]

Originally Posted by geordiecriag101

Alan Hyde mentioned that the curfew was 6:30pm

ITV commentators and studio pundits said multiple times that the curfew was 6pm hence the confusion.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

My mistake - I was only looking at 1.6.9 - 'Should any Round be reduced in length at the discretion of the BTCC Clerk (after consultation with the Administrator), full points will still be awarded (but not for each part of a two part Race) unless the Race is declared null and void in accordance with 3.8.2.d'

I should have checked 3.8:
'For races that have completed between 50% and 75% (inclusive) of the original Race Distance, 50% of the normal Championship points will be allocated.'


Which means - before the race starts, it can be reduced in length and still have full points.
Once a race has started, if between 50% and 75% of laps are completed, then half points are awarded.

There is a slight loophole though in 3.8.2.b - under this regulation the race can be stopped (as it was) and then restarted with a new length of less than 50% and still have points awarded.

I always wondered under a red flag are the cars in Park Ferme?

[mick bennett]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

I always wondered under a red flag are the cars in Park Ferme?

Presumably not ?? as the mechanics and everyone else were all the over the cars as soon as they stopped.


Personally I think they should'nt be touched.

[psq43]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

Presumably not ?? as the mechanics and everyone else were all the over the cars as soon as they stopped.

Personally I think they should'nt be touched.

If you've ever seen the 2014 Bathurst 1000, that's very very definition of a wild interpretation of what you can and can't do during a race suspension.

It also happens to be one of the absolute best motor races I can recall.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

Presumably not ?? as the mechanics and everyone else were all the over the cars as soon as they stopped.


Personally I think they should'nt be touched.

Hopefully some one with better investigative skills than me will respond, but I think that it all comes down to word semantics.

In this instance, the race behind the safety car was red flagged in order to suspend - not stop; there's the semantics - the racing. As such, I would presume that parc ferme conditions do not come into force, any more than competitors are permitted to come into the pits at any point in the race for their team to make adjustments, etc.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

that's ******** smells like title fixing

This comment, I believe, was made in relation to Hill's penalty. However, I don't think that anyone has mentioned, and apologies if they have, Sutton's drive through penalty in Race 2 because one of his pit crew was a few seconds late leaving the grid.

My view was that the punishment didn't fit the crime, not when considering that forcing another competitor off the track just loses the driver to lose a mere one or two places. Sutton had to rejoin right at the back, almost a lap down.

In response to another member here who sort of intimated that Sutton has lost his edge this year, his driving yesterday pretty well dispels that notion. In the right conditions, he is just as good as he ever was; I think that the problem is that the team seem to have squeezed almost all they can out of the Focus whilst other teams have managed to improve their packages.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Hopefully some one with better investigative skills than me will respond, but I think that it all comes down to word semantics.

In this instance, the race behind the safety car was red flagged in order to suspend - not stop; there's the semantics - the racing. As such, I would presume that parc ferme conditions do not come into force, any more than competitors are permitted to come into the pits at any point in the race for their team to make adjustments, etc.

regulations are very clear;

"Case B – More than two laps completed by the Race leader but less than 75%.

All cars must enter the Pit Lane and without stopping at their allocated pit area proceed to the Pit Exit to form up in a single line in the Fast Lane. Marshals will reorder the cars into the order specified by the restart grid with any lapped cars forming a second line in order on the inner lane. The Safety Car will proceed to the Pit Exit and the restart procedure will be in accordance with 3.13.16 with the Pit Lane considered to be the grid.

The Race will restart from a grid set out by the finishing order of part one (as per General Regulation Q12.15.2). The result of the Race will be the finishing order at the end of the restarted race. The length of the restarted Race will be determined by the BTCC Clerk and the countdown will start at the 5 minutes signal.

During such a stoppage:
a) a maximum of four team personnel may work on a car at any time

b) no tyre changes may be undertaken unless either on grounds of safety with the approval of the BTCC Chief Scrutineer or if the conditions have changed significantly since the race was stopped in the opinion of the BTCC Clerk who may decide to allow competitors to change from grooved/wet tyres to slick tyres or slick tyres to grooved/wet tyres in accordance with these regulations."

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

regulations are very clear;

"Case B – More than two laps completed by the Race leader but less than 75%.



Etc

That was quick; thanks. Confirms my thinking.

[mick bennett]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This comment, I believe, was made in relation to Hill's penalty. However, I don't think that anyone has mentioned, and apologies if they have, Sutton's drive through penalty in Race 2 because one of his pit crew was a few seconds late leaving the grid.

My view was that the punishment didn't fit the crime, not when considering that forcing another competitor off the track just loses the driver to lose a mere one or two places. Sutton had to rejoin right at the back, almost a lap down.

In response to another member here who sort of intimated that Sutton has lost his edge this year, his driving yesterday pretty well dispels that notion. In the right conditions, he is just as good as he ever was; I think that the problem is that the team seem to have squeezed almost all they can out of the Focus whilst other teams have managed to improve their packages.

Totally agree , sadly Sutton has had the most diabolical luck for the virtually the whole year. A drive through penalty was a simply dreadful decision. Rules are rules etc but that doesnt fit/justify what actually happended. All the mechanic/team member had done was?? he did'nt close the door quick enough by a few seconds. How would that affect the race in any shape of form?.
I would'nt have been surprised if he had been penalised for Ingram driving into him on the last corner in the last race as well!!.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

A drive through penalty was a simply dreadful decision. Rules are rules etc but that doesnt fit/justify what actually happended. All the mechanic/team member had done was?? he did'nt close the door quick enough by a few seconds. How would that affect the race in any shape of form?.

When the rules are written in a concise, precise way then allowing *any* wiggle room with respects to penalties is a slippery slope. This one was a few seconds, what comes next, two people by a few seconds, etc etc.

Perhaps the penalty itself is up for review, but the application of the penalty is absolutely correct. Once the rules start getting bent, everybody loses.

[TinTopGrumpy]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

A drive through penalty was a simply dreadful decision.

That's the penalty for breaking the rule. Perhaps they will change it in the future as they did with the rule about having the front of the car an inch over the grid box. That used to be a drive through as well but was changed to a 5 second penalty.

[mick bennett]

Originally Posted by TinTopGrumpy

That's the penalty for breaking the rule. Perhaps they will change it in the future as they did with the rule about having the front of the car an inch over the grid box. That used to be a drive through as well but was changed to a 5 second penalty.

I agree Rules are Rules , as mentioned in the last two posts, however in this case as just said in the above post the penalty is far to extreme for a very minor matter/ rule break.



A drive through is in the region of a minute perhaps even more and ruined a potential good race for Sutton. and NAPA.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

I agree Rules are Rules , as mentioned in the last two posts, however in this case as just said in the above post the penalty is far to extreme for a very minor matter/ rule break.



A drive through is in the region of a minute perhaps even more and ruined a potential good race for Sutton. and NAPA.

It almost looks as if TOCA are doing everything they can to make sure that Ash doesn't win the championship again this year...

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

It almost looks as if TOCA are doing everything they can to make sure that Ash doesn't win the championship again this year...

And yet the team keeps pushing - Rowbo dropping back from a potential reverse grid to get Sutton in the draw seems pretty impressive albeit Norris style on the last lap!

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

And yet the team keeps pushing - Rowbo dropping back from a potential reverse grid to get Sutton in the draw seems pretty impressive albeit Norris style on the last lap!

I'd say about the only way he'll win it now is if Tingram and Hill take each other out in the first race at Brands! Of course that kind of thing has happened plenty of times in touring cars. Remember Neal and Shedden accidentally dragging both of themselves into the gravel?

Even if the above happened, Ash would still have to outscore them both by about 12 points over the remaining two races as well to get the title!

It's exciting to watch regardless and there's the teams and manufacturers championships for them to think about as well.

[Evantra]

With the new qualifying format, I suppose there’s not a small chance one of them (Hill or Ingram) not making it out of Q1 which such little hybrid. I expect either would storm back through the pack in R1 anyway but that could be crucial for the championship.

Kinda wish for the last round everyone could have full hybrid for qualifying. Let it go down to being the best of the best at the very end.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Evantra

With the new qualifying format, I suppose there’s not a small chance one of them (Hill or Ingram) not making it out of Q1 which such little hybrid. I expect either would storm back through the pack in R1 anyway but that could be crucial for the championship.

Kinda wish for the last round everyone could have full hybrid for qualifying. Let it go down to being the best of the best at the very end.

IMO everyone should have full hybrid in qualifying throughout the entire season.