[BTCC] Who is the Greatest BTCC driver of all time?

[BTCC frog]

How do you know he isn't top three?

[BTCC frog]

3. Ash Sutton
I have no doubt that, when Ash Sutton retires, he will be the undisputed number one on this list. Yes, he clearly has a great team behind him in Team BMR but there's still something about Sutton's driving that makes him seem a class above the rest of the grid at the moment, and if (or rather when) he wins the championship this year, he will have won half the BTCC championships he has ever competed in. Ash Sutton joined the grid in 2016 in a Triple Eight MG, that was now owned by Warren Scott and Team BMR. He came off the back of a title in the Renault Clio Cup, although he surprisingly only just edged out teammate Ash Hand in a controversial finale. Sutton was teammate to Josh Cook in the MG and immediately looked impressive when he took pole position at Donington Park. Sutton took his first win in a wet race at Croft later in the season. At the final round he won the Jack Sears Trophy and ranked thirteenth in the championship, one place behind Josh Cook. For 2017, Sutton was promoted to Scott's main team, driving a RWD Subaru Levorg, and it transpired that Sutton was more of a RWD specialist. Sutton had pole taken away from him at Donington but fought back to take two podiums. He took his first win of the year at Oulton Park, and from then on became the man to beat in the championship as he won five more times, including a double at Snetterton, to take his first championship. This was made all the more impressive by the fact that his teammate was Jason Plato, and that Plato languished down in twelfth with only one win (although it is suspected that there were issues with his car). The Subaru was less competitive in 2018, particularly at the start of the season, and Sutton failed to even get a podium until Croft. Then, his season changed, and he won six races (in a season with seventeen winners) including one at the season finale at Brands Hatch after a fantastic battle with Josh Cook. Sutton was fourth in the final standings, while Plato was 27th. The Subaru was woefully slow in a straight line in 2019, making it extremely difficult for Sutton to race other cars. However, he was still consistently in the points and won at Brands to take eighth overall. Highly-rated teammate Senna Proctor was 20th. In 2020, Team BMR joined up with Laser Tools Racing to run the Infiniti Q50s, still a RWD car. Sutton was immediately on the pace with a win at Donington Park in the first round of the season. He won four more times and, despite a few unnecessary incidents (most notably at Croft with Jake Hill), he edged out Colin Turkington to win his second championship. Sutton also put in the greatest drive of his career thus far to take a podium in the reversed-grid race at Silverstone having been 26th on the original grid. Six rounds into the 2021 season, Ash Sutton leads the championship by 30 points after charging through the order to win race two at Snetterton, Knockhill and Thruxton, as well as race three at Thruxton in round one. The Infiniti is clearly a very quick car, but Aiden Moffat's results haven't been much better than when he was in the Mercedes, emphasising that Sutton's driving is probably the main factor in their success. I'm sure Alan Gow is fearful of Sutton dominating the next few championships, so I am hoping he returns to a FWD car for 2022, where he probably won't be quite as strong.

[S griffin]

Can't deny Sutton deserves to be up there, he's a one of kind top talent that only comes around 2 and 3 times a generation and seems he can get 100% out of a dust cart if he had to

[BTCC frog]

2. Alain Menu
The greatest driver of the most competitive super touring era misses out on top spot by a fraction. He was extremely quick, potentially slightly quicker than Turkington, but he did seem to have preferential treatment over his teammates at Renault, and was not as good in wheel-to-wheel combat. Menu joined the BTCC in 1992, driving a BMW, and narrowly outperformed teammate Tim Sugden in the first part of the season, including a maiden podium at Snetterton. Despite departing mid-season, he still finished ninth in the championship. Menu then switched to the works Renault team, driving the Renault Laguna that became synonymous with him. He was paired with reigning champion Tim Harvey and so looked to have a tough job on his hands, especially as the Renault was very uncompetitive in its first season. Strangely, though, it was the fastest car in the wet by a country mile, as was demonstrated at Donington in the second round of the season as Harvey led Menu home for a one-two. However, Menu generally had the upper hand over Harvey and took another second when it rained again at Donington, before taking his first win in the second race after a great scrap with Paul Radisich. Menu ended the season tenth in the standings, to Harvey's fourteenth. The Laguna went into the 1994 far more competitive and Menu took two wins at Oulton Park and Knockhill, along with an array of podiums, and took second in the championship at the end of the season from Radisich. However, he was a long way adrift of champion Tarquini. Harvey struggled down in ninth and was sacked. The Renault was even stronger in 1995, and looked to be a championship contender, particularly with its great form late in the season. Menu won seven races, but missed out on the title to John Cleland. He comfortably beat new teammate Will Hoy, champion of 1991, who was fourth with three wins to help Renault to their first manufacturers' championship. 1996 was almost a carbon copy of 1994 for Menu, as he took another second in the standings thanks to strong form late in the season, but was a long way behind champion Frank Biela's Audi. Another similarity was that his champion teammate, this time Will Hoy, only managed ninth and was sacked at the end of the season. There was a famous accident at Thruxton as Joachim Winkelhock was pincered between the Renaults while battling for the lead, eliminating all three. After finishing runner-up three years in a row, Menu was finally given the dominant car by Williams and Renault for the 1997 season and, despite an early scare as he was outqualified by new teammate Jason Plato for the first two races, Menu went on to utterly dominate the championship more convincingly than even Tarquini and Biela. Menu won twelve races and finished over a hundred points clear of Biela in second, while Plato was third. The Renault was no longer the dominant car in 1998 in a much more competitive season, and Menu only won three races to take fourth in the championship. He beat Jason Plato by only 24 points, and decided to depart from Renault at the end of the season to drive the Ford Mondeo. Initially, this appeared to be a bad move as it was the slowest works car on the grid for 1999. Menu ranked only eleventh with one win at Knockhill. But his move was proved to be the right one the following year as the Ford finally became the fastest car. Menu was part of the strongest driver lineup in the history of the BTCC alongside Anthony Reid and Rickard Rydell, but he proved himself to be the best of the three and won the championship by a mere two points from Reid. Menu left the BTCC to drive in DTM at the end of the season as Ford pulled out and the Super Touring era ended. I think it's safe to say that this was the most competitive era in BTCC history, and Menu was the best of a strong bunch from that era. Menu made three returns to the BTCC later in his career. The first was in the 2007 season finale at Thruxton, where he was drafted in by Vauxhall to help Fabrizio Giovanardi win the championship. Despite a puncture in race one, he did his job. In 2014, he returned for a full season in the BMR Volkswagen CC. This return is often cited as a disaster by BTCC fans, but I believe it was not (unlike Giovanardi's, which absolutely was). Given Menu was in his fifties at this point, the fact that he managed eleventh in the championship was quite impressive, only two places behind teammate Aron Smith who took two reverse-grid wins. Over the course of the season, I would argue that Menu narrowly outperformed Smith. He then returned to BMR for the season finale of 2015 to help Plato take the title. He got a puncture in the final race while running ahead of Plato's title rival Gordon Shedden, and Shedden then fought through the pack to take the title. Tim Harvey's words after the race were 'how different it could have been had Menu not had that puncture,' and he's absolutely right. (I would also like to point out that I said those exact words around five seconds earlier ) So I believe Menu was the second-best driver of the modern era, and no prizes for guessing who gets first place.

[S griffin]

Menu is someone I’d put at number one, so I’m very curious to see who you’ve put there instead

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Menu is someone I’d put at number one, so I’m very curious to see who you’ve put there instead

The poll results give a good indication of who it might be

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The poll results give a good indication of who it might be

That’s for people will too much time on their hands

[BTCC frog]

And now for number one:
1. Colin Turkington
Turkington has won more championships than any other driver in this era, with four. Perhaps he is not the fastest driver in this era, but I think he is the best overall because of his consistency which has allowed him to take four titles while the likes of Plato only have two. He has also proven to be strong in both front and rear-wheel drive machinery, although he has generally gained a reputation as a RWD specialist. One criticism that is often levelled at Turkington is that he is too cautious, but I wouldn't go along with that. Colin has proved that he can be aggressive when he needs to be, as shown by his incredible win from 15th on the grid at the second race at Brands Hatch 2017 to keep his title hopes alive, in what I believe is the greatest drive of his career thus far. He often plays it safe, but when he needs to he can pull off fantastic overtakes. He also made a superb fightback to win the title two years later. That race also showed another aspect of Turkington's driving that is to be admired, and that is that he rarely punts other drivers off or makes 'push-to-pass' overtakes. In the Brands finale of 2019, Turkington made a pass on title rival Cammish that was squeaky-clean, and did not attempt to spin him or push him off. Another aspect of Turkington's driving for which he is often praised is that he rarely makes mistakes, although I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. Key errors at Snetterton 2017 and Croft 2020 potentially cost him two more titles (although of course it's not as simple as that). Nonetheless, I believe he is the greatest driver of this era. Colin Turkington's career began in 2002, when he was driving the independent MG team named 'atomic kitten.' Turkington had a lot of bad luck that year, and only ranked fourteenth, behind teammate Gareth Howell. However, he was generally the stronger driver in that team, and he took a maiden podium at Croft, which went on to be his best track and earned him the nickname, 'King of Croft.' The following year, Turkington was promoted to the works MG team run by WSR, and despite incidents early in the year, he eventually finished eighth, just a point behind more experienced teammate Warren Hughes, and Turkington took his first win at Brands Hatch. I think it is interesting that after 2002 and 2003, WSR had to cut-down the size of their team by one car each year, and despite Turkington finishing as the lowest-placed driver both times, he was retained. Turkington's later success for the team proved this to be the right decision. Turkington was strong in qualifying in 2004 but not as much in the races. He won once at Mondello Park and ranked sixth in the championship, still behind Anthony Reid. For 2005, Turkington was given a season in the works Vauxhall team, but the new Astra was not as quick as its predecessor, and Turkington had an awful season, a hundred points behind Yvan Muller, although he did win twice. It's fair to say that the start to Turkington's career were not as impressive as you might expect given his later career, but he had a bit of a breakthrough in 2006. Back with WSR and the MG ZS, Turkington finished third in the championship, and went into the final round still with an outside chance of the title. In 2007, WSR switched to a rear-wheel drive BMW, and Turkington has since gained a reputation of being more of a rear-wheel drive specialist. In 2007, he won thrice and was fifth in the points, also collecting the independents' trophy. He went one better in 2008 and again won the independents', although this time he was beaten by fellow BMW driver Mat Jackson in the main championship. Turkington had another breakthrough in 2009, this time from top-level BTCC driver to one of the very best. Turkington won six races over the course of the season, including an impressive final-lap pass on Giovanardi at Thruxton, and he was involved in a title battle with the Vauxhall driver. Turkington went into the final race with a slender advantage over Giovanardi and Jason Plato, and what transpired was a fantastic championship victory, as Turkington was hit by Matt Neal while nudging him out of the way for the lead (Neal had been slowing him down to help Giovanardi). Despite what looked like suspension problems, Turkington stayed on the track and finished second, winning the title in style. Unfortunately, Turkington was unable to find the sponsorship to continue with WSR in 2010 and departed the series. After a few strong cameos in WTCC, Turkington returned to the BTCC in a 1-series BMW in 2013. He immediately outpaced Rob Collard and took five wins to get into the title hunt late-season and ultimately finished fifth. In 2014, Turkington took a dominant second title in what was surely his greatest season. After eight wins and a great drive to fourth at Knockhill from the back, Turkington won the championship with two races to go, and the title never looked in doubt. He was out of WSR again at the end of the year, but joined Team BMR in a FWD Volkswagen CC. This was very exciting as he was to be paired with the other best driver on the grid in Jason Plato. Plato only just had the edge over the course of the season, and he was more of a FWD specialist than Turkington, and fourth place was still a mighty effort. The tables were turned the following year, as Team BMR ran a RWD Subaru, and Turkington now had the upper hand over Plato. I believe this was Turkington's second-best season, as he outperformed the car in the first few rounds as the Subaru lacked development early on. Then from Oulton Park onwards he became the dominant force, winning five times to force himself into title contention despite taking ten points in the first three rounds. He was particularly impressive in Knockhill with some outstanding overtakes. In 2017, Turkington again returned to WSR and looked like the title favourite, but he was beaten by shock champion Ash Sutton. A key mistake as he spun out of the lead at Snetterton potentially lost him the title, but he drove his heart out to win race two at Brands from fifteenth on the grid and keep his hopes alive, potentially the best drive of his career. But Sutton and Subaru were too strong. Turkington did beat strong teammates Rob Collard and Andrew Jordan. In 2018, the grid was incredibly competitive and Turkington only won once, at Oulton Park. However, his great consistency showed and he took a third title with a race to spare, despite generally being outperformed by Sutton's Subaru and Tom Ingram's Toyota. WSR switched to a 3-series for 2019, which was comfortable the quickest car on the grid. Between them, Turkington and Jordan won nine of the first ten non-reversed grid races, but a nightmare for Jordan at Donington meant that Turkington led the championship at the half-way stage. The BMWs were not as quick after that, and Turkington and Jordan began to be reeled in by the consistent Dan Cammish. Turkington's big lead in the championship was slashed going into Brands after he was hit by Butcher at Knockhill and spun at Silverstone. He took pole for the finale and what transpired was one of the greatest title showdowns of all time. Cammish closed the gap in race one by winning as Turkington struggled in the wet. In race two, Cammish's teammate Matt Neal spun Turkington to the back, while Cammish took over the title lead and it looked as though his title hopes were over. But Colin fought back in race three, passing Cammish on track and eventually moving into sixth. This didn't look like enough for the title, until Cammish's brakes failed on the penultimate lap and he crashed, gifting Turkington a fourth championship, which he had deserved over the course of the season. Jordan's departure for 2020 meant Turkington went into the season as clear title favourite, but he was beaten again by Ash Sutton, the defining moment being when he crashed on cold tyres at Croft. The BMW's struggles in mixed conditions at Brands Hatch tipped the championship in Sutton's favour. 2021 has so far been a more difficult season for Turkington as he is only fifth in the championship after a few awful rounds, and his advantage over teammate Tom Oliphant has been cut significantly. But it is currently unclear whether this is down to him beginning to decline, or just issues with the BMW and improvement from Oliphant.

So I believe the best BTCC driver since 1991 is Colin Turkington, but is he better than Andy Rouse? I don't know, as I don't know enough about Rouse's career to decide. I have no doubt, however, that Ash Sutton will soon surpass both of these two to be the undisputed GOAT of the BTCC.
Thanks for reading, I have enjoyed writing these rankings. If anybody wants to dispute my order, that is fine. I will see it not as a criticism, but rather as a means for debate, as that is what forums like this are for.

[S griffin]

Thanks for the list. I personally would still have put Menu as #1, but I can't complain about you putting Colin there instead. Great driver, lovely guy and one of the fairest out there. Has always been a great driver. He deserves to be level with Andy Rouse in terms of titles

[coppice]

I am always very sceptical about GOAT lists - too many variables to mean very much , often descend into mud slinging , essentially more about subjective 'favourites' but a bit of fun .

I saw my first BTCC race in the pre Jurassic when we called them saloon cars but the guy who made the biggest impression on me (making me gape in disbelief at his sublime car control ) was Laurent Aiello .

[BTCC frog]

My recent work using a mathematical model to compare BTCC drivers has shown up this ranking a bit and found some interesting conclusions as to which drivers need to be higher or lower:

Paul Radisich should be rated much higher than eighteenth. He comfortably beat Andy Rouse, Will Hoy and Tim Harvey in the same car, and ranks among the very best.

Matt Neal and Gordon Shedden are quite overrated by most people (including myself), and actually the Hondas they drove for most of their careers were more dominant than they appeared. I have also overrated Jason Plato quite a lot, but not to the same extent.

Colin Turkington is the greatest of his era, but was not quite as good as the best super touring aces Menu, Rydell, Aiello or Radisich.

And Dave Newsham should definitely have been on the list, he was far better than we all thought.

I will release a full analysis soon.

[S griffin]

Radisich was my favourite driver as a kid and with good reason. Twice winner of the WC and beat 3 champion team mates as you say. Shame he didn’t have a car to win after 95, but he still gave it his all and occasionally put a car higher than it should have been

Newsham too could often put a car a little higher than it should of

[CarfanLUFC]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Radisich was my favourite driver as a kid and with good reason. Twice winner of the WC and beat 3 champion team mates as you say. Shame he didn’t have a car to win after 95, but he still gave it his all and occasionally put a car higher than it should have been

Newsham too could often put a car a little higher than it should of

Shaun Watson-Smith got a ridiculous amount of the Proton in 04, he would have been a race winner in the Astra no doubt about it.

On Radisich though, I wonder if he had any idea that Donington 95 would be the final time he stood on a BTCC podium? Incredible really.

I always liked him, I remember him being on the end of some pretty ordinary driving from Simoni and Watts in 94 and Ravaglia in 96 and taking it with good grace when he would have been within his rights to kick off.

Watts hates him though, read an interview in which he constantly laid into him

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

Shaun Watson-Smith got a ridiculous amount of the Proton in 04, he would have been a race winner in the Astra no doubt about it.

On Radisich though, I wonder if he had any idea that Donington 95 would be the final time he stood on a BTCC podium? Incredible really.

I always liked him, I remember him being on the end of some pretty ordinary driving from Simoni and Watts in 94 and Ravaglia in 96 and taking it with good grace when he would have been within his rights to kick off.

Watts hates him though, read an interview in which he constantly laid into him

Yes Watson-Smith really got a lot out of that Proton. It would have been nice to see Proton continue with either Leslie or Bennett, instead of the mediocre Hariuman, to see how much was down to the car and how much was down to him, but the fact he mixed it up with the MGs, Hondas and SEATs says a lot. A nice bloke too, met him at Donny that year. Like Tommy Erdos and Johnny Adam, he deserved a second season he never got

Radisich’s 95 season really took a dive from Knockhill onwards, only took two points from then till the end of the season. His last podium should have been at Knockhill R2, but he got a puncture quite near the end. I was at Silverstone in 98, really hoping he’d get a podium in that dry/wet/dry feature race, but he just missed out

Yes he had a few incidents with Simoni early on in 94, but Gianpiero himself said he was still adapting to touring car racing at the time. And Watts at least had the decency to apologise to him at Brands that year. Ravaglia though was quite rude after Radisich went for a friendly word after they collided at Brands in 96

Surprised Watts didn’t like him, who was the interview with and what were the reasons given?

[CarfanLUFC]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes Watson-Smith really got a lot out of that Proton. It would have been nice to see Proton continue with either Leslie or Bennett, instead of the mediocre Hariuman, to see how much was down to the car and how much was down to him, but the fact he mixed it up with the MGs, Hondas and SEATs says a lot. A nice bloke too, met him at Donny that year. Like Tommy Erdos and Johnny Adam, he deserved a second season he never got

Radisich’s 95 season really took a dive from Knockhill onwards, only took two points from then till the end of the season. His last podium should have been at Knockhill R2, but he got a puncture quite near the end. I was at Silverstone in 98, really hoping he’d get a podium in that dry/wet/dry feature race, but he just missed out

Yes he had a few incidents with Simoni early on in 94, but Gianpiero himself said he was still adapting to touring car racing at the time. And Watts at least had the decency to apologise to him at Brands that year. Ravaglia though was quite rude after Radisich went for a friendly word after they collided at Brands in 96

Surprised Watts didn’t like him, who was the interview with and what were the reasons given?

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/motor...81500753946158

Takes a couple of swipes of Radisich towards the end.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/motor...81500753946158

Takes a couple of swipes of Radisich towards the end.

Very interesting interview there, thanks. I had a feeling that his beef with Radisich was something to do with Paul taking his Peugeot drive, however I would say that there’s nothing there to say he disliked him to be fair

[billy bleach]

The end of the season is on the Horizon. Can we take it that Matt Neal has retired - if he has what a shame, to drop out with no recognition

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

The end of the season is on the Horizon. Can we take it that Matt Neal has retired - if he has what a shame, to drop out with no recognition

Think that came up in an interview with him - IIRC Matt wasn't that bothered about a fuss, Alan Gow was keener to make it an event!

Wonder what's in store for Plato's farewell meeting,

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

The end of the season is on the Horizon. Can we take it that Matt Neal has retired - if he has what a shame, to drop out with no recognition

I spoke to him earlier in the year. He says he hasn't retired.
He's actually racing in Spain this weekend, sharing a car with his sons and James Kaye.

[S griffin]

Matt Neal may not have retired, but I don't see a place for him in the BTCC again. Not that he's bothered, he's doing a good job in his team management role. And many memories of his time in the series to look back on

[Sodemo]

Sadly I only know the drivers from my era so that's pretty much late 80s onwards.

I would say Steve Soper, Laurent Aiello, John Cleland, James Thompson, Gabriele Tarquini, Jo Winkelhock, Colin Turkington, Alain Menu

[tux]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Matt Neal may not have retired, but I don't see a place for him in the BTCC again. Not that he's bothered, he's doing a good job in his team management role. And many memories of his time in the series to look back on

Im actually kinda surprised that he doesnt get interviewed more during the broadcasts.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by tux

Im actually kinda surprised that he doesnt get interviewed more during the broadcasts.

Maybe it's his choice?

[BTCC frog]

After the 2022 season, I think Ash Sutton has now surpassed Alain Menu and Colin Turkington to become the greatest BTCC driver I have ever seen (which means back to 1991 - I haven't seen anywhere near enough of Andy Rouse or Jim Clark as a BSCC driver to compare him to them).

Sutton had gained a bit of a reputation as a RWD specialist after his shock championship in 2017, destroying teammate Jason Plato, then continuing to work wonders in relatively uncompetitive Subarus in the following years while his teammates were nowhere, winning the championship with Infiniti on his first go, and then dominating in 2021, usually ahead of the very quick Aiden Moffat even with 75kg of success ballast.

Then he returned to FWD in 2022, paired with a driver who had showed himself to be one of the best on the grid by twice going into the final round of the season as a title contender in 2019-20, Dan Cammish, and totally wiped the floor with him. Cammish had a lot of bad luck but he wasn't in the same league as Sutton. With Ollie Jackson and Sam Osborne also having particularly poor seasons, it seems as though the Ford wasn't a particularly good car and yet Sutton dragged it into title contention. His racecraft also stands out with that brilliant defence in Brands Hatch when he lost the turbo and against Jake Hill at Knockhill where the BMW was dominant.

He might be flattered by his excellent engineers who follow him wherever he goes, but I think I would now rate Ash Sutton as the best BTCC driver of the modern era. He will rip up the record books if he remains in the championship.