Auto Action article on Sandown Safety

[RaceTime]

That particular accident was one that would normally never be envisaged happening - half way down a longggg straight is NOT the place an accident of that type would normally take place.

I don't believe tthe argument 'this is better than that' can be applied here as it was so freakish.

[Raglanparade]

yeah it was an unusual place to crash. i think uncovered concrete is dangerous tho, i would much rather see concrete, but covered with a layer of tires held together by a rubber wall.. like what you see in f1 these days.
You have concrete, then tires, then rubber wall.
maybe that would be the safest option.

-jason

[RaceTime]

What you have to remember about Sandown, however, is that there is NO run off verge on either side of the track - apart from temporary circuits, I don;t think that there are too many others likes this - Hidden Valley is - and it is also barrier, not concrete - but all the others are concrete and at least 1 or more metres of verge.

[just a racer]

The trouble with rubber tyres is that the fill up with dirt and essentually become solid as at Phillip Island.

[Dirk]

The trouble with Phillip Island is they were filled with dirt when they were put up. Tyre barriers at other circuits have not filled up with dirt and are in good working condition. Dirt filled trye barriers is just a cheap form of barrier.

[spook]

Using any form of rubber barrier has a down side. The rubber grabs the car at the point of impact and rotates the vehicle violently and a second impact occurs with the rear or side of the car. It is often this second imapct which does the most damage to the driver and often causes the car to then bounce out into the path of following vehicles, where further impacts can occur.

Watch Bargs big shunt at PI, and see how the tyres grab the car and increase the rotational velocity of the car.

With concrete walls the amount of energy in an impact is less as there is no "grab effect". Concrete barriers deflect the direction of the car better than guardrail, because there is no "pocketing" (or deflection) of the barrier.

Earth filled tyre barriers along high speed straights are deadly. Imagine being sqeezed off the track and glancing a earth filled tyre barrier at 200km/h. Now imagine the same incident with concrete barrier. No comparison.

[just a racer]

I know I would rather an armco barrier than a tyre barrier, this I know from experience!

[Dirk]

They should be used in different applications. Tyre Barriers should be used on corners where a vehicle is heading straight on into a barrier. They should never ever be used on straights. The only time a competitor should hit a concrete barrier or guard rail is on a straight where they can be deflected along it. This is where the guard rail is no good, becuase it doesn't deflect it grabs.

[spook]

A quick and cost-effective fix for Sandown would be to store all the concrete barriers from Albert Park in a line immediately in front of the existing guardrail at Sandown for the 10 months of the year they normally sit in a paddock. You could even put up sections of catch fencing for the marshalls.

The effective width of the circuit would be reduced by about 1.6m, but I think this is a better deal than any other option.

But it will require the approval of the Grand Prix board, who probably don't even know where Sandown is, or that there is any other form of motor sport in Australia outside the GP.

[RaceTime]

Will never happen at Sandown - you can't cover the jockey clubs precious flowers and grass....

[spook]

What?, they have flowers on the edge of the asphalt.

This is a no cost to the Jockey Club or Davo solution. The barriers have to be stored somewhere - it is just smart to store them where they are being usefull to the community.

[RaceTime]

spook - suggest you get out some photos and put your glasses on - Sandown has about 800 mm of bitumen fro the painted edge of the track to the guardrail (on the inside of the track) then it is hedges and grass.

On the other side it is concrete walls (about 1 metre high) behind which is grass which is used during horse racing.

Maybe the roses have long gone (sonce a F5000 decided to plough them up one meeting) but, like I said, there is no way the jockey club will stand for concrete barriers in fron of 2 high barriers.

(Edit to mention barriers) - This area (the bitumen) btw is accessible during horse races...

[Dirk]

I don't think that would be a "cheap fix" at all. The grand prix board would be looking for a hire fee for those barriers and I would presume it wouldn't be cheap. Anyway there is no point going for the cheap alternative when there are peoples safety at stake.......

[Crash Test]

Didn't lakeside used to store the Indy catch fencing and some concrete walls?

[zonda]

I can tell you from personal experience that the guard rails at the end of the main straight are pretty damn good. We were filming at the end of the straight when a Group C Commodore lost its breaks and hit the barrier. We dove for cover and only received a few grazes / bruises.
The barrier held up but had been pushed back about 2 meters.

I agree that Sandown should be improved barrier wise, but at least i know some of em work

dave

[spook]

Sorry all, I thought this thread was all about exploring options to keep Sandown in the game for minimal cost.

The GP board might save money. Does anyone know how far the walls are stored from Albert Park and what is the weekly cost of the storage site they use.

I am not suggesting that all the walls go there, but maybe enough to cover the areas of concern. It won't be simple, as I'm sure there are a number of drainage and transition issues to be sorted, but I'm just trying to help.

[RaceTime]

But spook - you have to remember that Sandown is not like Queensland Raceway or Oran Park - it is owned by someone other than Jon Davison or Sandown INternational Motor Rcaeway - and like Warwick Farm many many years ago - horse racing will always take priority over cars.

Like I said - if you have been to Sandown you will see just why concrete blocks would NEVER find their way on the main or possibly even the back straight - horse racing is their priority - not concrete blocks for cars. The owners spend a fortune on gardeners and grounds maintenance people at Sandown - and they are not there for car racing (you should hear them ***** and moan when the cars are there because of the damage they do to their precious lawns...

[spook]

I am aware that Davo is is the leaseholder of the motor racing venue, but temporary concrete blocks are a lot cheaper than removing the existing guardrail and replacing with extruded walls. And also cheaper than adding a third rail to existing 2 rail armco.

I'm sure the gardeners will always be unhappy, but I'm also sure that the lease to Davo exists because it is worth dollars to the jockey club. The jockey club may well accept some concrete narriers if they face losing their track licence or lease to Davo. Do we really know how they would react to the proposal, apart from the gardeners?.

[Matthew Ronke]

I am not sure of the exact Fee now for Sandown lease but it would not pay for the transport fee to bring the concrete blocks in. Income from the Motor Racing venue to the Racing Club is insignificant. I believe Holden put a big proposal to the Racing Club for a Holden driving centre but pulled out due to the uncertainty of Sandowns future (although this is an unconfirmed rumour).

[spook]

Matthew, the GP are already paying to have them transported somewhere and stored in a paddock earning no income, so if there are savings in the distance transported and a nominal income to be earned, why wouldn't they look at it?

Apart from the blinding obvious that someone has to be motivated enough to ask them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PVDA]

Any of you drive to or from Geelong during the freeway works?

Did the worksite concrete walls look familiar to you.

The AGPC rented heaps of them to VicRoads.

They are also used at Geelong during the Speed Trials.

[Crash Test]

I think a lot of daggier looking concrete blocks from the Gold Coast Indy have filtered through to main roads and BCC etc. I remember there was a time not long ago when I would go through a bit of the Fosters Chicane every day

Q- re AGP infrastructure. Did Albert Park get any stuff from Adelaide back at the end of 1995, or did they start afresh and Adelaide kept their oldies?

[spook]

Crash, those Indy barriers were hired from GCMEC for the construction of the Pacific Motorway (Beenleigh-Nerang). They all had to be returned within 8 weeks prior to the Indy each year, but that was no problem, they were used in "temporary diversion works" only (that's why you saw them for a while).

MRD actually "loaned" some $6M worth of pre-cast SSCB's (Single Slope Concrete Barriers) to the contractors buildimg the M1, and some of these barriers were later used in the final works. The rest have been used (although I believe there are a few stockpiles still around) for other roadworks throughout SE Queensland.

For those interested, the Single Slope Concrete Barrier was developed as an evolution of the original "Jersey" Concrete Barrier. The Jersey barrier has two slopes on the face, and was the "Standard" in Australia for the 1960's through to the early 90's. Lots around to see, if you look next time your driving.

The lower slope on the Jersey was there to turn the steered wheel upon impact and the upper slope deflected the body work of the vehicle. Unfortunately, the upper slope (sometimes with steel rail on top) also caused a few impacts with occupant body parts in shallow angle impacts. It was found that the Single Slope barrier was just as effective in impacts and there were fewer "occupant impacts" with the barrier.

In other words, the SSCB provided a more progresive impact without a secondary impact (second slope) that often caused an occupants head to "lean out" the window at just the moment when the barrier was closest.

Sorry, for the graphic description to all those eating while reading this, but that's what happens in "real world accidents".

On race circuits the ideal has always been vertical barriers, as this provides the greatest protection to the crowd, but the technology does not yet exist to extrude vertical face barriers. That's why you will see Single Slope Barriers on some "Permanent" circuits while pre-cast vertical barriers are used on "Temporary" circuits.

For a given impact, a Single Slope Barrier will create less lateral G's to an occupant than a vertical barrier, due to the "slope" effect.

I don't now the details of the infrastructure sharing between Adelaide, Melbourne and Indy, but I have seen truckloads of debris fence travelling interstate at this time of the year in seasons past. Probably does not happen any more since Melbourne has higher debris fences than Adelaide or Indy now.

[PVDA]

Originally posted by Crash Test
Q- re AGP infrastructure. Did Albert Park get any stuff from Adelaide back at the end of 1995, or did they start afresh and Adelaide kept their oldies?

They certainly did.

The blocks have a date stamp on them with the year of manufacture and you see a lot of 1985 dated blocks around Albert Park.

[Matthew Ronke]

http://www.redmax.com.au/images/vide...on-wmp-hi.html

Is some footage of Matthew Colemans Sandown accident with the two high Guard Rail.