|
|||||||||||
|
|||||||||||
3 Jun 2009, 12:30 (Ref:2474665) | #76 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,986
|
Quote:
|
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 12:31 (Ref:2474666) | #77 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 838
|
That is exactly what they are aiming for - the plan is that an engine should go an entire season without needing a rebuild, the rev limit is also going to be lowered to 7000 (it's currently 8500) for the same reason. The other advantage of the turbo unit is that when the S2000 equalisation stops in 2013 it will be trivially easy for TOCA to up the power of the NGTC cars as required.
|
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 12:35 (Ref:2474669) | #78 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,986
|
It will but to be honest, having gigantic amounts of power going through the front wheels will cause further problems with handling etc... yet another reason to allow RWD [or even make the whole series RWD based].
|
|
|
3 Jun 2009, 13:01 (Ref:2474684) | #79 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 306
|
I'd be sad to see RWD disappear as well. I quite enjoy the battles between FWD and RWD on different tracks, some stronger at the start, some at the end etc. I think it gives the racing an edge at times when you know one driver only has a certain window to try and get past another, tho of course if they fail it can make things a bit quieter when they can't challenge anymore.
|
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 13:31 (Ref:2474707) | #80 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,650
|
Huge discussions about where the cars will come from on here.
If (as claimed) the cars are going to be cheaper to devolp and run, then there will presumably be a strong demand from private teams wanting to setup in BTCC. Therefore RML, TD or whoever else is around in two years time will see the £££££££ signs and will look to churn out some cars for a nice little profit. I presume the market will dictate that cars will be available.... |
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 13:37 (Ref:2474713) | #81 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 838
|
I can't say I'm particularly happy about losing the RWD option, but Alan Gow has a point - why compromise the whole set of rules to appease one manufacturer, who hasn't entered a works car for well over a decade.
Now, if BMW (or Merc, or Jag) approached him with a major commitment to a works effort I imagine it might get looked at again.. I have to say I really don't like the idea of a RWD drive-only series - touring cars at it's heart is about production based racing, and for me the drivetrain layout must match the road car. I know the spec parts in these rules is moving away from that production based ideal to a point, but turning it into a silhouette series by starting to mess with drivetrain layouts would mean it would no longer be touring cars - at that point we might as well go the DTM route, and that is absolutely not (IMO) what the BTCC should be. |
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 14:30 (Ref:2474737) | #82 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 11,307
|
Why does there have to be a problem with writing a set of rules seperately for RWD?
Just make the rules the same as FWD and have them slap on 40Kg of weight for the benefits of having the rear wheels driven. Where is the problem? |
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 14:44 (Ref:2474740) | #83 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,545
|
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 14:54 (Ref:2474749) | #84 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,405
|
Quote:
|
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 15:02 (Ref:2474754) | #85 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,405
|
Quote:
Taking away the rwd option doesn't just take BMW out of the game as a factory team, but also stops independent teams from using the new regs to build their own BMW (or Merc, or Lexus...). I can understand why TOCA are going this route, but it's probably my least favourite part of the new rule package- and I'm not even particularly a BMW fan. They've managed to successfully equalise rwd against fwd before... I agree with you about not messing with drivetrain layouts- there's a place in motorsport for that kind of thing, but it isn't the BTCC |
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 15:36 (Ref:2474778) | #86 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 619
|
Quote:
ALSO why complain about BMW not entering as a manufacturer when Mr Gow has said that the championship doesn't need manufacturers?????? As KA has pointed out, BMW have been the backbone of touring car racing, some people say that BMW introduced the ultimate Touring car when it produced the M3. AND as you have said any manufacturer with a rwd car considering joining has no chance of competing after 2011. It does not just effect BMW. |
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 15:51 (Ref:2474784) | #87 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 838
|
I don't necessarily agree with him!! All I'm saying is that I can see where he's coming from
|
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 16:24 (Ref:2474801) | #88 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,986
|
When it comes to the RWD ban, I can't see where he's coming from. I hope he has a rethink on it because a lot of the remaining regulations aren't that bad at all.
|
|
|
3 Jun 2009, 16:52 (Ref:2474813) | #89 | |
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,882
|
It's probably to early to expect an response but I would like to hear what Mario Theissen (BMW), Eric Neve (Chevrolet), Jaime Puig (SEAT) and KSO/WTCC have to say about NGTC.
It would also be interesting to hear from DTC and STCC organizers about these new rules. Is there interest from Gow to NGTC being used in other series? (hint for Helterskelter/StopAndGo.tv & Johan/TouringCarTimes ) |
|
|
3 Jun 2009, 17:12 (Ref:2474825) | #90 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,890
|
But there were no competitive BMW's racing in the BTCC for nearly 10 years (1997 - 2006), so they are obviously not as vital to the series as people imagine.
|
|
|
3 Jun 2009, 17:31 (Ref:2474830) | #91 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 838
|
From the Q&A:
Quote:
|
|||
|
3 Jun 2009, 17:40 (Ref:2474836) | #92 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 813
|
BMW should belong to Sportscar racing more than Touring cars nowadays. Their involvement in Touring cars over the years to the degree which they have, is obviously for the most part down to the performance edge that RWD gives them. If they only made FWD cars would they have been that interested in the BTCC for this long?
It says a lot about BMW that they don't seem to be interested in competing in the one major RWD only Touring car championship that also spawns from their home turf. A bit too much competition for them? I think the best thing BMW can do in 2011 is to join the DTM and compete against other RWD cars. |
||
|
3 Jun 2009, 17:56 (Ref:2474848) | #93 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,882
|
Missed that. Looks indeed as a yes. BMW's are heavily used in STCC and DTC. These series could always allow the German RWD cars (and other RWD cars). Use for RWD cars the NGTC technical rules and give them extra weight.
Quote:
Quote:
a) These tubeframe silhouette cars have nothing to do with road cars b) They want to sell cars to customers |
|||
|
3 Jun 2009, 20:45 (Ref:2474949) | #94 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,986
|
I agree with FIRE, I think its very unfair to say that BMW have only participated in touring car racing because of the advantage of RWD. They've been the backbone of the WTCC for almost a decade, fielding numerous works teams and giving support to privateers. They have a heritage in touring car racing going back many decades and possibly have contributed more to touring car racing than any other marque. Its practically in their DNA. What's more, they have always worked closely with privateers to make their technology accessible to more than just the works teams - c.f the 2002, 3.5CSL, 635CSi, M3, E36 318, E46 320, E90 320.
Many people on this thread have questioned the exclusion of BMW... and I'm sure we're not alone among the motorsport community. If they're cast out on a worldwide basis [assuming everyone adopts Alan Gow's rules]... it will be a very sad development for touring car racing. |
|
|
3 Jun 2009, 23:00 (Ref:2475022) | #95 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 809
|
Just on the 'who would build a car' point, anyone remember Synchro Motorsport. Tiny operation run by some people from the UK Honda factory with very little backing but always did well and won either the production or indy title one year (hard fact for you there!) They pulled out a few years back cause they couldn't get the backing. Surely it's people like them who would be interested in a halved budget. New teams could build these cars.
Once upon a time there was no 888, WSR or Arena. Racing cars were still built. We can't look at the grid now and say "there'll be no teams to make cars", because that's just at the moment, new teams can evolve and emerge into this series. Just look at the new teams looking at F1 now the budget's set to drop. |
||
|
4 Jun 2009, 00:44 (Ref:2475054) | #96 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,890
|
Quote:
And that's just the current teams, let alone new ones that will join because its cheaper. So obviously there are plenty of teams that will build them. |
||
|
4 Jun 2009, 07:20 (Ref:2475146) | #97 | |
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,961
|
It should be easier for a team to come in from a support series due to tall the common parts that will be off the shelf, such as the subframe etc.
|
|
|
4 Jun 2009, 13:13 (Ref:2475323) | #98 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,742
|
Both Ian Harrison and Steve Neal (2 bosses of those teams that do actually build their own cars, i.e. they should know what they're talking about) were in Autosport this week saying it's going to be very difficult to fund this without manufacturer support
IH: "I like the rules, but I'm worried about the timing. When we started on these rules, we had Vauxhall and SEAT, Volvo were coming in, Ford, Honda etc, all of whom could potentially support the build costs, so for teams to find the money to build these cars is going to be difficult" SN: "The suggestion has been that the three existing constructors [Dynamics, Triple 8 and Arena] could all build six new cars each straight away, and sell four each to customers to recoup our costs. I think that's a bit optimistic" |
||
|
4 Jun 2009, 16:31 (Ref:2475418) | #99 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,890
|
Quote:
I don't know why you keep banging on about "who will build them and who will afford them?". Have a look at the grid; 90% of the current teams are privateers who can afford to build or buy or run S2000 cars (without any manufacturer support), and which are much more expensive, so why do you think those same teams won't be able to build or buy or run the new cars when they are much cheaper?? They can afford to build or buy S2000 cars without manufacturer support but you doubt if they can build or buy cheaper cars? That's just doesn't make sense. |
||
|
4 Jun 2009, 16:58 (Ref:2475434) | #100 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 679
|
Quote:
I heard that Arena have put in a six figure sum to develop the Focus'. If that is true, how are 'Independant teams' going to find that sort of money to build cars from scratch? |
|||
__________________
I think animal testing is a terrible idea: they all get nervous and give the wrong answers...! ...........Steven Fry |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The top 3 drivers of 2011 | Ralf's Girl | Formula One | 29 | 19 Jan 2011 18:36 |
No French GP until 2011! | Marbot | Formula One | 32 | 16 Dec 2008 01:05 |
Interesting 2011 regulation proposals | Marbot | Formula One | 48 | 1 Jul 2007 20:34 |
MotoGP/Valencia until 2011 | f1manoz | Bike Racing | 11 | 13 Dec 2004 21:43 |
Coulthard still at Maclaren in 2011??!!! | RWC | Formula One | 34 | 20 Feb 2003 18:54 |