[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[Adam43]

There is currently >30s between the two Corvettes. BoP clearly not working.
And >30s between the first two LMP2s.

After only 3.5 hours of racing.

[Lasse]

...

[Adam43]

The first question to ask is what is a reasonable variation in performance? Obviously it is unrealistic to expect nose to tail after hours of racing. Purely from a statistical perspective.

While there is a hierarchy in the teams, the gaps between them are comparable with gaps between cars in the same team being similar to gaps between teams. We are also seeing a similar spread across LMP2, which is all the same car!

That for me, is a decent result. Could be closer, could clearly be worse.

And we haven't been through all drivers and conditions yet.

I reserve full judgement on this.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Lasse

I am not sure if the hybrid of the Toyota is makeing the difference in traffic, but as I remember it the hybrid deployment have been nerfed somewhat?

I believe that is what is causing the challenging handling in higher speed corners.

[chernaudi]

The tricky thing about BOP is that even in spec categories where everyone has basically the same stuff, the cream still rises. LMP2 is basically a spec Oreca class, but the #38 Jota has cleaned house so far all day. Same Oreca chassis, same Gibson V8, same Goodyear tires, as everyone else. I know that set ups aren't spec, but even the sister car has had issue keeping up.


However, it does seem that BOP has bit Ferrari in GT, as it seems that especially as the track rubbered in, Porsche and Corvette seem to be evenly matched now.

[peetleouf]

It's really a shame for Toyota, they have been doing Le Mans since 2012 and only managed to win when all the other factory teams left. They never managed to beat Audi, were humiliated by Porsche and now the organizer is obliged to give them an advantage against much smaller opponents to make sure they win... I liked them in 2012, it has become a team that I hate, the worst being the main team Pascal Vasselon who is a real crybaby ... I can't wait for next year when Porsche and/or Ferrari will spank them...

[Adam43]

I think you might be confusing sportscar racing for football there.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by peetleouf

It's really a shame for Toyota, they have been doing Le Mans since 2012 and only managed to win when all the other factory teams left.

They almost won in 2016... almost

Originally Posted by peetleouf

Pascal Vasselon who is a real crybaby

True there, he totally is.

Originally Posted by peetleouf

I can't wait for next year when Porsche and/or Ferrari will spank them...

I wouldn't be so sure about that, the GR010 is a beast car.

[chernaudi]

IMO, no different than when several of the Audi wins or quite a few of the Porsche wins didn't exactly come against the stiffest of opposition.



For top classes at LM, the late 80's Group C and late 90's GT1 and LMP900/GTP fields are the exception rather than the rule since almost the very beginning. A lot of the time one or two factory/factory class teams was good going. A few times even, having one was doing good for LM. Remember 1994?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by tomcug

BOP is supposed to equalize cars, no matter that some of them are multi-million prototypes built by major manufacturers and others are much cheaper private efforts. What the ACO does has nothing to do with performance balancing, just try to get too close to the Toyotas and you get a penalty incoming immediately. And it's not about penalizing Toyotas, they're not in any way. It's about the others not having any chances to compete with them.

Yes, that's why if LMH/LMDh truly wants to operate like GT3 then Toyota or Peugeot or Porsche should need to homologate their chassis and engines, and sell it for a fixed(low) price to all privateers who place an order. Then LMP2 can be done away with.

The works teams would still compete, but privateers would be able to purchase the same vehicles. You'd have 40+ cars in the top class, it would be grand!

[S griffin]

So far I do like what I've seen of the LMDh formula. The problem is it needs to be kept a close eye on so the manufacturers don't spend ridiculous amount of money. I don't think manufacturers would really be interested in selling to privateers. Although I do wonder about the future of LMP2.

I look forward to seeing more works teams competing in the not too distant future. However I hope the privateers still have their place. It's right though that the ACO are focusing more on the top class now

[gert]

IMO the BoP was pants.

A fair BoP (as in Balance Of Performance) should give all cars the same chance at success.
Regardless if they are a big constructor (Toyota), a small constructor (Glickenhaus) or an old grandfathered car (Alpine)
I *do* include Alpine. It races under the same regulations as the other 2. If it shouldn't be allowed to win, then just exclude it and don't let it compete at all.
Maybe that would have been the better option but since it is there, the same chance at success should apply.

In reality, the goal of the BoP seemed to be: Toyota-Toyota-Glickenhaus-Glickenhaus-Alpine.

Which is what we got, but not what BoP means (IMO)

*

The same applies to GTE Pro. If BoP is fair, the outcome of the race should be unpredictable, and every single manufacturer should have the same chance at success.
Things like "Corvette surely seems like the favorite" (see pre-race analysis) should never even be on anyone's mind.

Barring accidents and mechanical mishaps, I'm convinced the order would have been Corvette-Corvette-Porsche-Porsche-Ferrari-Ferrari.

Contrary to the Hyperclass, I'm not sure this was intended.
If it was, the question is: why?
If it was't, then I say they did a bad job at BoP-ing.

[Sodemo]

Absolutely agree, the "BOP" isn't a "balance" at all, its a stacked deck in favour of Toyota. I don't think any race fans necessarily want an indie to start with a performance advantage over a factory team, but Glick and Alpine need to be in with something approaching a fair shot, whether you look at fuel tank sizes, chassis weight, engine performance etc, I guess those are the obvious performance factors that are reasonably easily adjusted. Personally I would increase the weight of LMH cars by 150kg, reduce the weight of non-hybrid LMH by 50kg and offer them a 12 Litre larger fuel cell.

After typing that I remember I thought some time ago I was complaining because the LMH cars were barely quicker than LMP2 cars, so adding 150kg of weight probably is not going to help and would just make them more lumbering and clumsy in slower speed corners. I don't know to be honest, maybe offer non-hybrid cars an increased turbo boost?

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I don't know to be honest, maybe offer non-hybrid cars an increased turbo boost?

If I remember right, James Glickenhaus said that his LMH can easily run with more power without any reliability issues (same goes for Alpine). But as already pointed out above, the idea was to give Toyota fifth free victory and this is what happened. Sad but true.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

You'd have 40+ cars in the top class, it would be grand!

Grand for sure but very unlikely to happen. Even in the LMDh formula customer cars will be very very limited and in case of some manufacturers not available at all.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by gert

IMO the BoP was pants.

A fair BoP (as in Balance Of Performance) should give all cars the same chance at success.
Regardless if they are a big constructor (Toyota), a small constructor (Glickenhaus) or an old grandfathered car (Alpine)
I *do* include Alpine. It races under the same regulations as the other 2. If it shouldn't be allowed to win, then just exclude it and don't let it compete at all.
Maybe that would have been the better option but since it is there, the same chance at success should apply.

The way ACO handled the bop for alpine was tragicomic... same power of test, a first increase of power, then another cut of power. Everything in few sessions.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by peetleouf

It's really a shame for Toyota, they have been doing Le Mans since 2012 and only managed to win when all the other factory teams left. They never managed to beat Audi, were humiliated by Porsche and now the organizer is obliged to give them an advantage against much smaller opponents to make sure they win... I liked them in 2012, it has become a team that I hate, the worst being the main team Pascal Vasselon who is a real crybaby ... I can't wait for next year when Porsche and/or Ferrari will spank them...

2015 aside, when ts040 was basically nowhere, I don't think toyota have been actually humiliated by anyone across all these years, not to mention how in 2014, 2016 and 2017 they lost LM for the most unlikely and unpredictable unfortunate circumstances despite being the best in grid.

[Simmi]

Slightly worrying trend this year from the ACO of what I'm choosing to call 'Flip-Flop BoP'.

Rather than going in a certain direction it just gave the impression they were free styling a bit.

You could see Alpine were caught out by it. They assumed they'd got their break and proceeded to naively show, not only some one-lap pace, but also a 13-lap stint. If BoP is a game then it's tough when the rules are so fluid.

Also, just purely from a consistency perspective, I've no idea how the Vette sailed through race week without any changes. Especially given some of the extra micro adjustments to minimum wing angles etc. I've watched enough racing to know it was clearly "Corvette's turn" this year. They'll know that, which makes what happened all the more brutal for them.

The top class BoP discourse in years to come is going to be wild.

[chernaudi]

You gotta also remember that IMSA also caught a lot of stick for how they handled BOP, especially in LMP1 and GT1, back in 2006 with constant, race to race changes. The ACO have done the same with LMH this year, especially Alpine. They started off maybe too dominant at Sebring, then perhaps went too far on the power tracks (Spa, LM) reeling them in.


I'd say get rid of BOP, but that genie got let out of the lamp years ago, teams generally want it in some form, we have to hope that the ACO get it right at some point.

[Simmi]

I heard on RLM that Peugeot had 'demanded' that the Hypercar BoP be purely mathematical. I'm not sure if might see a tweaked system next year?

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Simmi

the Hypercar BoP be purely mathematical

And what is that supposed to mean? No "success ballast" component in BOP like we've seen this year with Alpine? Or whatever else?

[canaglia]

same AWD-hybrid configuration, probably same tires size, same aero/cx ratio due mandatory homologation requisite. If ferrari will use a 90L fuel tank like toyota and peugeot... why ferrari, toyota and peugeot cars should have a different bop?

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by canaglia

same AWD-hybrid configuration, probably same tires size, same aero/cx ratio due mandatory homologation requisite. If ferrari will use a 90L fuel tank like toyota and peugeot... why ferrari, toyota and peugeot cars should have a different bop?

Peugeot are sticking with same size front and rear tyres.

But besides that, in theory it should be easier to balance the new cars because, as you say, they are built to a formula, also with the same power/weight. The Alpine is the outlier. In its LMP1 configuration it would comfortably be the fastest car on the track. It would have been fun to see it outpacing the others but having shorter stints. But fun wasn't really on the menu this year...

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by canaglia

same AWD-hybrid configuration, probably same tires size, same aero/cx ratio due mandatory homologation requisite. If ferrari will use a 90L fuel tank like toyota and peugeot... why ferrari, toyota and peugeot cars should have a different bop?

If that's what they want and it happens, in the end we will just get more Toyota snoozefest races

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I heard on RLM that Peugeot had 'demanded' that the Hypercar BoP be purely mathematical. I'm not sure if might see a tweaked system next year?

Originally Posted by tomcug

And what is that supposed to mean? No "success ballast" component in BOP like we've seen this year with Alpine? Or whatever else?

Maybe they want a system like IMSA. No i don't know the ins and outs but I think it is formula based somehow and the rules are set before the season and everybody agrees.

[Mike E]

Doesn't the WEC already use an automated BoP system for the non-LM rounds for GTE? Was this adopted?

I guess it would be a similar set up

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/w...17667/5017667/