Safety in Historics - points raised by incidents at Goodwood

[Al Weyman]

And in club racing it is as often as not the other competitors that dictate to the organisers who thwy do bot want to race against and I could tell you of a vey big name (I won't say who it is as his son posts here) who appeared with us in the modprods for one race and set about knocking people off the track, I was rounded on by a deputation of drivers who told me point blank and in no uncertain terms it was him or then at the next meeting and I had no choice but to inform him his membership to the club had been revoked thus taking any punitive decision out of the MSA's hands. Also this year and although I am no longer involved with the club my successor had no choice but to do the same thing to another driver and if you ask anyone who was at Pembrey this year you will know who I am talking about. Another well heeled guy who had no respect for other peoples machinery.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Slippy Diff
One driver was allowed to get his early 60's sportscar through scrutineering with a modern 6 speed race gearbox because he was German Count!!!!

I thought creative spelling to get round the filter was not allowed?

Oh, wait, I see what you mean.

[johnw]

Peter,
No probably about it, I absolutely enjoy the Revival along with 100,000+ others.
Do we know that there was no action taken in the case you mention? Maybe not the action you or I would have liked, but there's no way of knowing as details are not published.

I was interested in hearing your Mustang driver's view from the horses mouth, not your version of it. It might be, for example, that he believed that you pulled over on him too soon.

Who is talking about speed differentials? I was discussing driver inconsistency in a field of 100. You get it in a field of 20.

BTW, I can indeed say that poor driving exists in club and national racing. I see enough of it. If everyone threw out the offenders as you and Al suggest, I wouldn't.

[Peter Mallett]

We'll agree to differ. As the guy would not speak to me himself I am unable to quote him.

It was rather funny seeing his face as he came towards me and then change his mind. I was actually leaning on the rear of my car drinking a cup of coffee at the time and I wasn't going to create a storm about it.

I'm sure he thought I'd pulled over too soon. Hence the "hooligan" tag from his friends.

Of course you see it in club races. But you rarely see it twice unless its the Hot Hatch championship.

But I use it as an example of the relaxed view officials take of the apparent misdemeanors of our "better" drivers. As evidenced by this thread.

[ss_collins]

I could race with an open exhaust but its not worth the hassle with the scrutes.

But silly things do arise - you don't have a white background to you number - nope I don't need one. etc etc..

Safety wise not a lot arises

[johnw]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
We'll agree to differ.

Seems a sound plan

Of course you see it in club races. But you rarely see it twice unless its the Hot Hatch championship.

Where I believe it's mandatory

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed.

[Dan Friel]

I think the elitism issue at Goodwood is an interesting one. Motorsport is full of elitism, personally I think it’s jolly unfair that I don’t have enough cash to go racing – but just have to make do with the odd sprint / hillclimb and marshal. Having watched motor racing for lots of years, I’m convinced that I’m more talented than most of the racers I’ve seen (well one or two of them.. maybe..) . But that’s just life.

Personally I have no problems with the fact that rich people get invited to Goodwood, as it’s them that have the best cars (which I want to see) and are usually extremely immaculate. Afraid that it’s tough on the average racer that not everyone gets an invite (although there are 2 other days that could be used). Lord March is in it to create a spectacle and to make some cash.

Also, I think you may be a little too critical of the driving standards. Most people are driving at that 96% as its dangerous, the cars are usually worth too much to rag anyway. I’ve seen some pretty average CSCC races in my time! Don’t think I’ve ever been bored at Goodwood.

However, looking at the TT grid, surely that’s one of the highest quality driver line ups of the year anywhere in the country??

Finally, the drivers at Goodwood broadly fall into 2 catergories.. 1. Professional (hence decent) and quick. 2. Rich and mostly average (much less than 96%). Would it be dangerous to invite a bunch of club racers along that fancied their talent, but in fact are just usually slightly better than the rich dudes??

[simon drabble]

Perhaps the more relevant question is how does it compare with the other historic festivals in Europe and US? It is very different and I think most of the criticisms have a point ... but I think if we are honest we would all love to race at the festival!

[Peter Horsman]

I would say that most the racers at Goodwood are either professional and (we assume) good or rich/richish and pretty good. But there are some who drive inappropriately who come from either camp! As I noted before, sometimes, a novice cross has been seen which is perhaps surprising.

However, the racing is generally good and real. The same cannot be said of the annual historic festival at Leguna Seca where, in my opinion the racing is not nearly as good and (dare I say it on a website with our American friends on-line) not as real. The marshals/clerk of the course do not like vigorous driving even if non-contact.

Goodwood is special for a variety of reasons. It should not be sanitised like Leguna Seca and that has consequences.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally posted by ensign14
I thought creative spelling to get round the filter was not allowed?

Oh, wait, I see what you mean.

[Andrew Kitson]

Despite the accident to Chris and the damage to some of the cars, it is still the greatest race meeting /event on the planet. You have to go and be there to appreciate it.
There is nothing else like it, racing how it used to be. No magazine article or TV broadcast can duplicate the atmosphere or capture all of the sights and sounds both on and off track. No other modern historic meeting comes close. Chris will mend and the cars can be repaired.
In my opinion, motor racing is and always has been dangerous, if you think it is too dangerous don't compete, simple. Same with horses, mountaineering, aerobatics, etc,etc.
Tragedy can happen in modern racing too, as we have seen this year for example in Renault Clios at Thruxton. It will always be dangerous.
What is absolutely paramount is that the spectators do not get hurt as they do not choose to step into the cars and not one onlooker was in the slightest way threatened at Goodwood. The drivers know the risks as do the number that choose to race with open faced helmets. Let them!
We have this debate every year. As 18racer rightly pointed out, we do not want the safety nazis ruining this too, like so many circuits and other things in life.
I cannot wait for next years event!

[Fan]

Agree 100% Andrew. When I drive the '61 F1 car I know what the risks are. No one is forcing me to race, infact it's an honour to be invited to Goodwood. My only issue is that some drivers want to win historic events at all costs. I don't understand that logic. Marcus Pyes' article in Autosport this week mentioned that he was more concerned with inexperienced drivers. I feel the issue is with the experienced drivers who drive at 100% in an effort to win.

[johnw]

Andrew Kitson
Spot on!

[Nordic]

While I agree it is fully the drivers choice weather and how hard to race, fully knowing the possible outcome to them should things go wrong.
The main concerns I have are should an open wheeler, for example, lock wheels with another and cartwheel into the crowd causing untold mayhem, that is when the **** will hit the fan.

This clearly effects all types of racing, but at an event like goodwood where there is no debris fencing and only a small amount of run off, the dangers are hightened, add into the mix a very wide range of driver experiance, committment and speed adds yet another level of danger.

How much pressure would goodwood be able to resist before having to erect fences, cancel the meeting or downgrade, like the FoS to a bunch of demo's ?

[Peter Mallett]

Nobody is saying that we shouldn't race these cars, nor are they suggesting that motorsport should be "safe".

However it seems a bit daft to me that allowing inexperienced drivers out because they have "interesting" cars but can't drive them fast defeats the object of "racing" and puts other drivers at risk from erratic driving.

Likewise allowing the more famous drivers to get away with ignoring flags will also have a detrimental effect on the racing.

[Fan]

I agree with what you're saying Peter, but I didn't see any novice drivers making fools out of themselves, I did however see a few "experienced" drivers racing like the 2004 F1 championship was at stake...

[Heebeegeetee]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Despite the accident to Chris and the damage to some of the cars, it is still the greatest race meeting /event on the planet. You have to go and be there to appreciate it.
There is nothing else like it, racing how it used to be. No magazine article or TV broadcast can duplicate the atmosphere or capture all of the sights and sounds both on and off track. No other modern historic meeting comes close. Chris will mend and the cars can be repaired.
In my opinion, motor racing is and always has been dangerous, if you think it is too dangerous don't compete, simple. Same with horses, mountaineering, aerobatics, etc,etc.
Tragedy can happen in modern racing too, as we have seen this year for example in Renault Clios at Thruxton. It will always be dangerous.
What is absolutely paramount is that the spectators do not get hurt as they do not choose to step into the cars and not one onlooker was in the slightest way threatened at Goodwood. The drivers know the risks as do the number that choose to race with open faced helmets. Let them!
We have this debate every year. As 18racer rightly pointed out, we do not want the safety nazis ruining this too, like so many circuits and other things in life.
I cannot wait for next years event!

Wholeheartedly agree. I wouldn't change anything. If a driver is unhappy at inexperienced drivers taking part, then don't go. It would be unfair for someone to want to compete at goodwood because it is special, but to then want to have changes made to the 'recipe' that makes it special.
I just think that perhaps a clearer warning could be made to the inexperienced drivers that they must watch for the faster cars, and then they must give way to them. From what I saw last weekend, the message doesn't appear to have been got across clearly enough.

Many should by now have seen the dreadful picture on page 9 of this weeks Motorsport News of Chris Smiths accident. My initial reaction was 'My God, perhaps it shouldn't be allowed to race such cars'. But once the emotion has been put to one side, I think that if Mr Smith has 'only' suffered lower leg injuries, you have to say that the safety aspect of the sport isn't too bad after all. Last time I saw a picture like that was when Nelson Piquet hit the wall at Indianapolis.

I wonder if Chris Smiths car suffered steering u/j failure? At that point he would have bben on the grass before he could realise what was happening, and of course the brakes don't really work on the grass.

It certainly looked as bad an accident anyone would wish to have, and I find it reassuring that Mr Smiths life was not put in danger, especially considering the type of car he was in.

[Fan]

Heebeegeetee, at Goodwood we have three briefings, a general one on Thursday, then one before qualifying and one before the race. On each occasion we get told: if you're not quick, look in your mirrors. Don't make sudden movements if the leaders are behind you, etc etc.

Basically if people can't follow those rules, then they shouldn't be racing... I can't see how Goodwood or the organisers can do any more...

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Fan
On each occasion we get told: if you're not quick, look in your mirrors. Don't make sudden movements if the leaders are behind you, etc etc.

Basically if people can't follow those rules, then they shouldn't be racing... I can't see how Goodwood or the organisers can do any more...

Exactly my point re novices. And the only thing the organisers can do is not invite them next year.

[Heebeegeetee]

Then again, have the novices caused any accidents, or is it just the experienced guys having them?

[Al Weyman]

Maybe run it like a trackday i.e. overtaking only on the straight and on the righthand side.

[Fan]

Originally posted by Al Weyman
Maybe run it like a trackday i.e. overtaking only on the straight and on the righthand side.

If they do that I'll walk away from this sport in disgust.

I don't know of any novice drivers causing accidents at Goodwood. In fact I can't think of any from 1998. Brabham had a big shunt in '99, hardly a novice. The roll in a D Type Jag last year was driven by an experienced driver, as was Chris Smith.

[Al Weyman]

Well lets make no bones about it most accidents occur aproaching corners when cars dive up on the inside overtaking an earlier breaking car, it would not be my cup of tea either but if I was driving a million pound Lola T70 I may think it would be a sound suggestion.(I nearly bought one of those for £600 from Paul Hawkins without an engine, back in the 60's belive it or not,I wanted to put it on the road, he thought I was a mad young limey we were haggling over £100 when he died in a crash at Oulton Park).

Edit Jokog aside would you really expext 2nd World War Fighters to do balls out aerobatics or are you quite happy to see these old machines do a few gentle barrel rolls etc,, surely it is a similiar scenario.

[Heebeegeetee]

Originally posted by Al Weyman
would you really expext 2nd World War Fighters to do balls out aerobatics or are you quite happy to see these old machines do a few gentle barrel rolls etc,, surely it is a similiar scenario.

I for one am happy to go along with the premise that yes, an average Goodwood car might be worth a couple of mill, but you can only do about a hundred grands worth of damage to it.

By and large the history of these cars hasn't come to an end. In fifty years time or so these Goodwood races will be spoken of in the same reverence as we reserve for races held 50 years ago, and the provenance of cars that raced there will be much enhanced.

There is the odd car that should be totally preserved, IMO, the no.2 Silk Cut Jag that won Le Mans in '88 comes to mind. But let's be honest, most of the cars out there we drool over are woodmans axes. I also feel that so long as cars are rebuilt by the wonderful artisans that there are out there, Rod Jolley for instance, and so long as body panels aren't being stamped out in Taiwan, then yes, damage inflicted at Goodwood (sad as it is)becomes part of the cars history.

I don't like to see them damaged, but I do go weak at the knees seeing them raced as they are at Goodwood. Long - forever! - may it continue.