[WEC] 2015 WEC Discussion

[Nick Woodbury]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota just tested at Magny Cours and had me thinking about that track.

Hmm, that would be an interesting track to think about. However, I sense that attendance would struggle at such a venue. To be honest, I can't remember the last time a major sports car racing series has run at Magny-Cours. Perhaps FIA GT3 several years ago?

[carbon_titanium]

BES 2011

[Brake dust]

I would like to see one additional race in Europe (August) and one additional race in North America. Right now, it feels like, out of sight, out of mind. Hard to build WEC series when there is such a huge break after Le Mans - all momentum is lost.

In Europe, would like to see the race at Monza, Imola or A-1 ring.

In North America, Montreal would be a possibility. Strong history of supporting Motorsport. Fantastic location - walk-able to the circuit from the city center. Great city - nice potential road trip for fans. Could easily convince my wife to attend that venue. Based on the attendance at COTA this year, if it's weak, would moved to a circuit that has a history of a large fan base - Road America or Mid-Ohio.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Spain is in a deep crisis. Nobody would attend a sports car race.

Back when Spain wasn't in crisis, there was a Spanish manufacturer in P1, Audi and Peugeot were battling at the front and there was a Spanish driver in the winning car, nobody attended a sportscar race.

Heck, historically they have enough trouble attracting people to F1 at Catalonia; I'm sure Alonso saved that GP. Four wheels is two too many (and I don't fault that mentality)......

I know we've been over it several times, but it seems such a pity that we're talking about 3 North American WEC venues and they are the Texas car park, Indianapolis' former car park and Montreal. Although I can find little fault with the latter, in a land with Road America, Laguna Seca, Sebring, Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen, that really is shameful.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Back when Spain wasn't in crisis, there was a Spanish manufacturer in P1, Audi and Peugeot were battling at the front and there was a Spanish driver in the winning car, nobody attended a sportscar race.

Le Mans Series races had/have never really been crowd magnets though, Barcelona 1000km was no different.

And by 2009 the works teams and Genes had gone

I know we've been over it several times, but it seems such a pity that we're talking about 3 North American WEC venues and they are the Texas car park, Indianapolis' former car park and Montreal. Although I can find little fault with the latter, in a land with Road America, Laguna Seca, Sebring, Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen, that really is shameful.

Yes it is. But as long as FIA/ACO wants F1 standards for everything - when in truth even Lime Rock would qualify - it's all what we are going to get.

Anyway at least with Indy and GV you get a sense that you are actually in America, when I look at Cota from TV it might just well be the parking lots of Turkey, who can tell the difference.

[Rodger Davies]

I don't disagree with you there, there are few venues that wouldn't be an improvement!

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Back when Spain wasn't in crisis, there was a Spanish manufacturer in P1, Audi and Peugeot were battling at the front and there was a Spanish driver in the winning car, nobody attended a sportscar race.

Heck, historically they have enough trouble attracting people to F1 at Catalonia; I'm sure Alonso saved that GP. Four wheels is two too many (and I don't fault that mentality)......

I know we've been over it several times, but it seems such a pity that we're talking about 3 North American WEC venues and they are the Texas car park, Indianapolis' former car park and Montreal. Although I can find little fault with the latter, in a land with Road America, Laguna Seca, Sebring, Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen, that really is shameful.

Are you sure about the "Spanish Manufacturer"? SEAT is the only Spanish auto company I can think of and Peugeot is French, not Spanish.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

Are you sure about the "Spanish Manufacturer"? SEAT is the only Spanish auto company I can think of and Peugeot is French, not Spanish.

Think he's referring to Epsilon Euskadi

[Rodger Davies]

He is. Next competition: guess the year and driver!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

He is. Next competition: guess the year and driver!

2008 and mr Gene

[Rodger Davies]

Well done. You win a cookie. To collect in person at the N24 next year.

Apologies for the detour, back to the topic...

[seanyb505]

The WEC tracks all seem more complicated than Indy. Sure Indy 500 and all that, but the roval really reminds me of a slightly larger, parking lot auto cross that happens to tie into the local short track back straight. I would respond with something along the lines of NA having greater historically significant tracks, but then I think - Indy. Even so, there are tracks in NA that have significantly (I believe buttload is the technically accurate term) more character than Indy. I'd be curious to see if participants actually enjoy racing the layout. Take the name out and see how decent the track is. I can't imagine it would garner much praise.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Le Mans Series races had/have never really been crowd magnets though, Barcelona 1000km was no different.

And by 2009 the works teams and Genes had gone



Yes it is. But as long as FIA/ACO wants F1 standards for everything - when in truth even Lime Rock would qualify - it's all what we are going to get.

Anyway at least with Indy and GV you get a sense that you are actually in America, when I look at Cota from TV it might just well be the parking lots of Turkey, who can tell the difference.

You talk a lot about these so called parking lots, and always complain of excess tarmac. Lets be realistic, the best tracks in the world are doing or have done the same thing. Spa has paved over La Source, Eau Rouge, Les Combes chicane, Pouhon (probably the biggest), Stavelot, Blanchimont and the bus stop chicane! Is Spa a parking lot?

If it has history, its ok to race there. Cant race at cota, bahrain, fuji, shanghai because theyre not historic enough. Or they have too much tarmac run off etc. Well you drop those races and who will take their place? Its just a fantasy to believe there are so many other "real" tracks/venues willing to put up enough money to host the wec. Its a two way street. People should think about that. Whats it take to host a wec race? You cant just go anywhere.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

You talk a lot about these so called parking lots, and always complain of excess tarmac. Lets be realistic, the best tracks in the world are doing or have done the same thing. Spa has paved over La Source, Eau Rouge, Les Combes chicane, Pouhon (probably the biggest), Stavelot, Blanchimont and the bus stop chicane! Is Spa a parking lot?

If it has history, its ok to race there. Cant race at cota, bahrain, fuji, shanghai because theyre not historic enough. Or they have too much tarmac run off etc. Well you drop those races and who will take their place? Its just a fantasy to believe there are so many other "real" tracks/venues willing to put up enough money to host the wec. Its a two way street. People should think about that. Whats it take to host a wec race? You cant just go anywhere.

Yes, unfortunately, it is these days! A highly elevated one however but that cannot take away the demolishing of character that has been going on over the last 5 years or so. Just look at pictures or footage from a couple of years ago - or even better: compare your own memories! - and you will see how many trees and bushes have been taken out and how much extra paved extension has been put in. You will notice how staggering differently the place looks, La Source, Bruxelles/Rivage and Pouhon are the most painfull examples of that development....

Saddest thing is the end of this development is nowhere in sight.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

You talk a lot about these so called parking lots, and always complain of excess tarmac. Lets be realistic, the best tracks in the world are doing or have done the same thing. Spa has paved over La Source, Eau Rouge, Les Combes chicane, Pouhon (probably the biggest), Stavelot, Blanchimont and the bus stop chicane! Is Spa a parking lot?

If it has history, its ok to race there. Cant race at cota, bahrain, fuji, shanghai because theyre not historic enough. Or they have too much tarmac run off etc. Well you drop those races and who will take their place? Its just a fantasy to believe there are so many other "real" tracks/venues willing to put up enough money to host the wec. Its a two way street. People should think about that. Whats it take to host a wec race? You cant just go anywhere.

When I say parking lot I always refer to the extensive use of tarmac runoffs, not the layout (although often with new (Tilke) Grade 1s - as in the case of CotA - I strongly dislike them too)). Modern Spa is a parking lot... as is new Silverstone... and many others. Le Mans is increasingly starting to pick those styling clues as well. It's the fever that is poisoning European and Asian tracks.

The track doesn't have to be historic to be on WEC calendar (although in some cases a la Sebring etc it is justified) - but it doesn't always have to be up to F1 standards either when we know these cars are ratified for Grade 2. By practising this they are limiting themselves to corner for no reason. There are other options, many many other options, just buried under the rock. Of 18 races this year on the ACO calendars, only two are not Grade 1 (Inje and LM - for obvious reasons)

But as I've said before, with North America in particular I believe also it's the lack of European styled big indoor garages and VIP facilities that really keeps them out.

Anyway it all comes down to my personal preferences of course - and with North America in particular it's annoying to just ignore the fabulous circuits, best in the world, and go to the boring ones. And yes I believe quite few of them would have the capability to host this events

The other thing with choosing the venues is the marketing point of view, but we've gone into that before so let's not bore ourselves with that

[TF110]

Of course not. "Safety first". Gravel traps arent doing anything in their opinion. Pushing back fences, barriers, adding pavement, access roads and all that are measures the governing bodies have taken for their aim at being safer. Maybe there are other ways to go about it, but thats not the direction theyre taking. Things change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

[Coach Ep]

Here is an example how a track can be upgraded without demolishing it's character. It's a lesson to be learned for many.

[Maelochs]

VIR wasn't trying to please ACO or seeking Grade One credentials, and so daf as I know, none of the people who are quoted have actually raced or maybe even driven on the new track.

Not saying it is not good, just that this is a much a promo piece as anything else.

Personally, I expect VIR to be a better track with a little added width and no gravel traps. but I will wait until I see a race their to make a judgment.

Alos, if VIR was trying for a major upgrade, maybe to attract WEC someday, they owners might have had to sacrifice a little character and add some gravel traps. I sincerely hope Road Am can find a middle way.

[Deleted]

http://www.speedcafe.com/2014/08/21/...-ten-coverage/

Network Ten has commissioned former Formula 1 driver Mark Webber to co-host selected Formula 1 and V8 Supercars events for its revitalised 10-month motorsport schedule in 2015. Webber is set to be thrust into major TV duties as co-host alongside Matt White for the V8 Supercars Championship’s showcase season-opener – the Clipsal 500. The nine-time F1 grand prix winner will also share the desk with White for the Bathurst 1000.

---He has a multi-year contract with the Zuffenhausen maker with the WEC rounds next year conveniently not clashing with his Ten commitments.

I guess the calendar is finished then. And obviously we can already knock off the Adelaide, AGP and Bathurst 1000 weekends off from the potential dates with this. Not that we ever really expected early March race anyway... or in all likelihood anything new in the first place, again...

[Bandicoot17]

Originally Posted by Chiana

.. or in all likelihood anything new in the first place, again...

I'm sure we've been through this before, but the series is like 3 years old, extra rounds mean extra money and doing all that too quickly will just kill the series. Stability is more important than expansion is it not?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

I'm sure we've been through this before, but the series is like 3 years old, extra rounds mean extra money and doing all that too quickly will just kill the series. Stability is more important than expansion is it not?

I didn't say extra round (although certainly second NA or fourth European wouldn't kill it if it was scheduled correctly), I said nothing different as in same venues in same countries, same 6h distances, same 2-way season division as in gigantic summer breaks etc. Now obviously we haven't seen anything yet but how much do we have to bet on it? I guess they could come up with the winter schedule that's been brought up by the ACO but other than re-arranging the dates and flipping the European races to the end, would much change?

Yes every year they say the same thing about stability and making the existing events get foothold in the sportscar world, but seriously for how many years can you say that the same thing for Shanghai 6 Hours or whatever when clearly sportscar fans still see them as "just championship rounds". And it's not like the current schedule is trouble free either or have we forgotten the sea freight logistics / cost saving difficulties?

Btw technically it's 5th year if you count the ILMC.

Anyway Porsche buying Kyalami brought hope, but it's probably just for their testing.

Just to make it clear - there are FAR more international circuits in the world that I love than hate, it's just that they've been picked this way

[Bandicoot17]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I didn't say extra round (although certainly second NA or fourth European wouldn't kill it if it was scheduled correctly), I said nothing different as in same venues in same countries, same 6h distances, same 2-way season division as in gigantic summer breaks etc. Now obviously we haven't seen anything yet but how much do we have to bet on it? I guess they could come up with the winter schedule that's been brought up but other than re-arranging the dates and flipping the European races to the end, would much change?

Yes every year they say the same thing about stability and making the existing events get foothold in the sportscar world, but seriously for how many years can you say that the same thing for Shanghai 6 Hours or whatever when clearly sportscar fans still see them as "just championship rounds".

Btw technically it's 5th year if you count the ILMC.

Anyway Porsche buying Kyalami brought hope, but it's probably just for their testing.

Just to make it clear - there are FAR more international circuits in the world that I love than hate, it's just that they've been picked this way

a) I don't count the ILMC

b) Yes, it's going to be the same, I'm sure the teams want that, they know what they're getting into, they know the costs etc. It's still early days for the series and we can see they're looking into extra rounds (Montreal). I'm sure that'll start to happen and we'll see the calender grow. The 6 limits are there for TV purposes and you can say that's silly but it;s better than having distances and then suddenly having to change when a company comes in wanting to air the whole thing etc.

It's early days relatively speaking and given a bit of time the series is sure to expand

[Deleted]

It's just that I don't want to be served the same exact dishes every week. Even if we got ten 6 hour races at Road America every single year it would get tiring after few seasons

Also, it doesn't need to be distances necessarily, I mean I've gone on record before that I would love 3-4 hour regular races. There's no real need to endure the 6 hours every race - we know these are sprint races nowadays and the equipment will last - and old WSC was famous for the 500km ish distance ie roughly that timeframe in it's glory years. And since we talk about TV here, surely shorter races would also please them?

But above all you need a standout races besides just LM, something that stands out - and if we really can't have established events like Sebring or Petit nor can we go anywhere outside Grade 1 tracks for no real reason, at least make one of the events last 12 hours. Or 10.

Now would something like Fuji 12 Hours really make it special? I mean quite literally that would just mean 6 extra hours to the current format on a track not universally loved anyways. No not really, but it would still be different and 12 hours actually does test the car. You could improve the spectacle by inviting other classes in too, like AsLMS did (and only did, foolishly) with Super GT's GT300 class last year at Fuji. Or heck just integrate the Asian Le Mans Series for that one race, as ILMC did. Or ELMS if we we're talking of European event, eliminate filler classes if grid capacity is too high. You could also start giving automatic invites for the class winners as PLM used to do. Sky is the limit - unless it's the FIA burearchy that is preventing all these different things out of total standardization that ILMC and previous series practiced.

Sportscar racing has always been about the events, not series. Nobody really remembers who won the championships in year X but everyone remembers the big events with factories and heritage. No don't get me wrong "regular" events like Spa 6 Hours or Mosport Grand Prix are still important parts of the season for various reasons but you need the big events. With LMP1 in particular there quite literally is nowhere else to go so this is the only place to showcase the cars, and when you only have seven regular rounds run "wherever" and start of the season used as LM-prep anyway it just kinda underlines the whole thing and centers everything around Le Mans... which is obviously logical as Le Mans means more than all of world's other sportscar races put together but when everything is so focused on just one event it just builds bigger gap between LM and all the rest. And that's how it feels to common folk too, there's Le Mans and "the other rounds".

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Also, it doesn't need to be distances necessarily, I mean I've gone on record before that I would love 3-4 hour regular races. There's no real need to endure the 6 hours every race - we know these are sprint races nowadays and the equipment will last - and old WSC was famous for the 500km ish distance ie roughly that timeframe in it's glory years. And since we talk about TV here, surely shorter races would also please them?

Judging by the people in USCC wanting a shorter schedule with longer races, people in WEC probably feel the same way. So no, 500km or 3 hour races are probably not what they want.

Originally Posted by Chiana

But above all you need a standout races besides just LM, something that stands out - and if we really can't have established events like Sebring or Petit nor can we go anywhere outside Grade 1 tracks for no real reason, at least make one of the events last 12 hours. Or 10.

Now would something like Fuji 12 Hours really make it special? I mean quite literally that would just mean 6 extra hours to the current format on a track not universally loved anyways. No not really, but it would still be different and 12 hours actually does test the car.

I agree with this. It would be cool to have a 10 or 12 hour race. Or at least the Mil Milhas again. But right now, it isn't absolutely essential.

Originally Posted by Chiana

You could improve the spectacle by inviting other classes in too, like AsLMS did (and only did, foolishly) with Super GT's GT300 class last year at Fuji. Or heck just integrate the Asian Le Mans Series for that one race, as ILMC did. Or ELMS if we we're talking of European event, eliminate filler classes if grid capacity is too high. You could also start giving automatic invites for the class winners as PLM used to do. Sky is the limit - unless it's the FIA burearchy that is preventing all these different things out of total standardization that ILMC and previous series practiced.

Eliminating the "filler" classes isn't a good idea so that's never going to happen. And auto invites are sort of redundant since the WEC field already is guaranteed in and most of the "local entries" will be invited anyway or have cars that aren't eligible to run at Le Mans.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Sportscar racing has always been about the events, not series. Nobody really remembers who won the championships in year X but everyone remembers the big events with factories and heritage. No don't get me wrong "regular" events like Spa 6 Hours or Mosport Grand Prix are still important parts of the season for various reasons but you need the big events. With LMP1 in particular there quite literally is nowhere else to go so this is the only place to showcase the cars, and when you only have seven regular rounds run "wherever" and start of the season used as LM-prep anyway it just kinda underlines the whole thing and centers everything around Le Mans... which is obviously logical as Le Mans means more than all of world's other sportscar races put together but when everything is so focused on just one event it just builds bigger gap between LM and all the rest. And that's how it feels to common folk too, there's Le Mans and "the other rounds".

If you want to use the old WSC as an example, the majority of races in that time were 6 Hours or 1000km. The "standardization" that you are so against was quite common back then too. If memory serves correct, the WSC rarely ran at Sebring, Daytona, and Le Mans in the same year after the 60's.

I agree that there can be one other "big event" but right now, it's not necessary. Stability is necessary right now and possible expansion can be considered. The standardization isn't a big deal...every championship in the world has a standard distance outside of its big events.

I forgot to add this. Le Mans is bigger than the championship itself, that's true. But Le Mans is also 80+ years older. The WEC will become more important/prestigious as it gets older.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Salamus

The WEC will become more important/prestigious as it gets older.

That remains to be seen - as soon as the majority of the manufacturers withdraw the championship will either quickly or slowly come to an end. Privateer entrants don't need to do the WEC to get an a spot on the grid at Le Mans but can run in one the regional series (as was shown this year) and spent considerable less money.

If the WEC had one or two other big events, the lure for entrants would be bigger, now it's all and only about Le Mans, keeping everything the same (or even converting to a 'winter schedule' without changing anything else) will maintain that situation.

Sportscars are not F1 - somebody should have told Neveu and you would have just thought that FIA's Petit General would know that like nobody else...