[LM24] F1 attacks Le Mans

[Fogelhund]

One thing for certain, the original article sure sucked quite a few people into talking about it. Nothing better than a slightly controversial article, with the goal of attracting attention. Congrats for giving something that should have been buried more attention than it deserves, and falling for the trap.

[TRuss]

Yeah!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

This is like a 'discussion' about football teams!

Come on, it's not that important.

This is a hobby for most of us, as such I'll never hold back on something so trivial.

F1, I can't put into words how I dispise everything it now stands for.

[koper]

Originally Posted by johntt

Kubica is just stupid and ignorant here. Maybe he should have come over and watched the race on his weekend off.

Originally Posted by Dario911

On the same car, McNish or Minassian would beat up without any problem the polish flying chicken kubica...
Sorry, Mr.Chicken... your ignorance is greater than all the distance run by Audi in the last Le Mans...

I don't think any chicken would come back to racing after such shunt like Robert had in Montreal in 2007.

Anyway, he is not only focused on F1.
In 2004 he drove Lancer Evo VI in one of the Polish rallies pics1 pics2
He attends rallies from time to time, he wants to do rallying once he is done with F1.

You cannot expect anyone to be keen on everything. It's not possible.
Give Robert a break. Don't read too much. I can't see anything arrogant in his statement.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

F1 isn't McLaren-Mercedes versus Renault, quite right. Sport is about the people. The main people just so happen to be the drivers. Who in motorsport do I want to meet and perhaps talk to? The people or a diesel engine?

I watch F1 without much passion but sportscars and endurance racing is my great love. I'm staying out of the politics of this thread and Kubica's quote is probably been taken a bit out of context - don't forget that each young driver knows that F1 is the pinnacle for drivers and is the speed and glamour that are so idolised by youth.

However, I just wanted to disagree with the entirety of the above quote. If that's you views then that's fine, I don't want to dispute them, all I would like to add is that the reason I go watch motor racing is the cars. I'm not a fan of athletics and I watch cycling for the heroic characters but for me, the stars of my main love are the cars and this is one of the things that attracts me to sportscars.

Furthermore, I sometimes question the relevance of the drivers in F1. It's become better this year, no doubt, but look at the difference between the first and second placed Audis and tell me Kristensen, Capello and especially McNish weren't absolute heroes to win that race.

Carry on...

[johntt]

I stand by my comment about Kubica here.

I respect him as a driver, his comment about only needing a house to live in, food to eat and a car to race shows me that he is a racer not merely a driver. I also like his open-mindedness when it comes to rallying. The fact that Hamilton considers him to be his main competitor in the coming years speaks volumes and he is very clearly talented and dedicated to what he does and his comeback from that crash in Montreal in 207 was amazing.

However, no-one is perfect and he comes across as very ignorant when he derides a race that he has never seen on TV, let alone live. If he had bothered to go and watch the race then he would note that it is actually a race.

Its a shame he takes that view as i would like to see talented drivers like him race at Le Mans, Kubica/Heidfeld/Asmer in an M3 GTR would be brilliant, as would Raikkonen/Massa/Salo in a F430.

I don't agree with Dario911's comment.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JAG

F1, I can't put into words how I dispise everything it now stands for.

I disagree with this, you have put it into many words.

Originally Posted by Fog

One thing for certain, the original article sure sucked quite a few people into talking about it. Nothing better than a slightly controversial article, with the goal of attracting attention. Congrats for giving something that should have been buried more attention than it deserves, and falling for the trap.

Too true. It is a reported quote, with little context by a driver who's first language is not English. And he is condemned. Quite incorrectly as the over above examples show him to be a real racer (albeit a young one). Quite unfairly by those who accuse him of unworthy dismissal of another branch of the sport, and justify this by dismissing!

Well done to Kubica, I look forward to seeing him race in F1 more and hopefully race other things too. You never know he may even race a Sportscar in the future. Providing the politics, rules and bickering don't destroy it.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I disagree with this, you have put it into many words.

[dxk1]

While F1 claims it's about the drivers, it's really about the technology and nothing else. If you have the best equipment, you win. Period! There's really nothing left up to chance and just great driving skills...unless it rains!! When it rains, the real drivers come to the fore. I enjoy F1, but enjoy the heroics of sportscar racing to a much greater degree. Watching the Penske Porsche win at Sebring was truly remarkable and unexpected and seeing Audi snatch victory from the jaws of defeat at Le Mans this year was truly great drama. Watching the parade in F1, where for the most part the race is decided during qualifying is just not that gripping. This year is a little more interesting in F1 than the last few years because of the emergence of BMW/Sauber and Mr. Kubica. If you doubt that it's the technology, just look what happened to poor Mr. Barichello. He was second in the Championship when he was with Ferrari and now he's nowhere, rarely ever scores a point. I doubt his skills deteriorated that much in the last few years.

DK

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by JAG

What will you be able to justify to your board of directors, a demanding public and an ever more crtical media, a gas guzzling glorified F3 car with 20,000rpm engines and the looks of a Tie Fighter, or a hybrid engined, fuel efficient (with rewards from the organisor), low drag bodied machine with road car looks?

I happen to think that Tie Fighters look quite nice, unlike modern F1 cars.

Then agian, I think the 908 is an atrocity.

As for this thread, I may read all of it later.

I am a fan of both Le Mans style racing and F1, the antipathy to F1 I can sorta understand, but still seems weird to me.

To be honest, it seems liek there is more passing in F1 than at Le Mans or in the LMS as in those long distance races someone tends to build up a hauge gap and passes are done in the pits or whatever.

The ALMS has a nice balance as the races are more liek sprint races and you have manufacturers fighting for the overall lead at any given time - look at the last race where the R10s went from 3rd and 4th row or whaetver to first on the straight at the start. That was amazing, and the whole race was great.

On the otherhand, look at last F1 race. It was great. Unexpected winner, calamity (not too much passing I guess) but all in all, not bad.

Why the hate?

[Oldtony]

Hey, there are plenty of us who have contributed to this who do not hate F1. Personaly I enjoy the whole circus thing, but I am concerned about it's increasing irrelevance to real motoring. Lets face it F1 is now becoming a sort of "parity" series where bright ideas are dicouraged by those ultra conservative freaks, the marketing gurus who are convinced that celebrity is more important than integrity.
Of course LMP gives more technical freedom and the GT classes are (a little) closer to road cars so the whole show is more relevant to the requirements of the real world.
This whole thread would not exist if Ron and Bernie had not adopted a smug, derogatory attitude in their remarks on Le Mans. Me thinks they are trying to distract attention from the problems in their world.

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by the sniper

I know Renault spend the least out of all the manufacturers in F1, but if you compare that to the rumoured 200 million Euro's that Audi spent on winning Le Mans this year, Sportcars looks less attractive.

OT, but where did you hear this figure? Granted, nobody bar VAG is ever going to know for sure, but I was under the impression that the consensus on the R10 was something more like $50-80 million for development and then ~$20m per year to race.

If that's you views then that's fine, I don't want to dispute them, all I would like to add is that the reason I go watch motor racing is the cars. I'm not a fan of athletics and I watch cycling for the heroic characters but for me, the stars of my main love are the cars and this is one of the things that attracts me to sportscars.

Likewise. For me it is very much cars and technology first, drivers second.

[Mal]

Ron & Bernie making derogatory comments are really the biggest compliment they could give as it means they feel potentially threatened by Le Mans as they were in the Group C days. Lets not forget that in the 50's and 60's Le Mans and sportscar racing were every bit as popular as F1 if not more so.

I would not like to see Sportscar racing up with F1 in popularity as it would change the face of it completely. Already there is much more corporate activity at LM in the last year or so, so lets not let the corporates and the big spenders take over from a race that really is for the fans.

The advantage to the increased popularity is the return of the manufacturers and as we saw this year we had a full on battle throughout the race in which the apparent underdog came through to win.

Le Mans etc needs to position itself for the enthusiast and the informed buyer because that is in reality who loves it. Anyone who loves cars and sportscars are potential LM fans.

To me manufacturers like BMW have lost some of their prestigous status over the last few years whereas Audi have only increased it. 10 years ago Audi was largely seen as an old mans car but now it has a reputation for quality but interesting cars. Some of these reputations can be attributed to Audis pursuit of Sportscar racing and BMW choice to go to F1.

for any manufacture whose target buyer is the higher end and or sporty car market then ALMS and LeMans is the best place to be and this applies to

Aston, Maserati, Porsche, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus, Infinity etc.

What has also changed is that it now also applies to manufacuters who are pursuing green policies and this explains the increased interest from Honda and Toyota.

[JAG]

I disagree with this, you have put it into many words.

There's still some more in the tank!

I don't understand why so many F1 fans bend over oand take it from Max and Bernie, maybe they have the sport they deserve?

£150 F1 GP tickets- 'I'll take two!'

£60 'Go Hamilton' T-Shirts - 'Yes Please' ('Whose Mclaren-Mercedes?')

Caged like animals and steered clear of the cars and F1 establishment - 'We're only fans, afterall'



PS, my previous comments do not apply to Kubica, drivers only have eyes for F1 until their seat options become limited. It's Max, Bernie, Dennis and co who opperate in an F1 vacume, likely why the technology has become so irrelevant, and the sport treats it's European heartland and classic GP's with such direspect. How many non-descript far flung races does F1 actually need?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by the sniper

Well you say that, when Flavio Briatore was asked about a 175 million Euro cap for 2009 in Formula 1 he said "I already pay 40 per cent less than the cap." By my calculations that means 70 million Euro's. I know Renault spend the least out of all the manufacturers in F1, but if you compare that to the rumoured 200 million Euro's that Audi spent on winning Le Mans this year, Sportcars looks less attractive.

Like cdsavage already asked, where did you get that 200 million?

Also that Renault budget sounds odd. According to F1 Racing magazine's estimation Renault spent $324 m in 2007:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula...ue_and_Profits

[deggis]

Originally Posted by dxk1

While F1 claims it's about the drivers, it's really about the technology and nothing else. If you have the best equipment, you win. Period! There's really nothing left up to chance and just great driving skills...unless it rains!! When it rains, the real drivers come to the fore. I enjoy F1, but enjoy the heroics of sportscar racing to a much greater degree. Watching the Penske Porsche win at Sebring was truly remarkable and unexpected and seeing Audi snatch victory from the jaws of defeat at Le Mans this year was truly great drama. Watching the parade in F1, where for the most part the race is decided during qualifying is just not that gripping. This year is a little more interesting in F1 than the last few years because of the emergence of BMW/Sauber and Mr. Kubica. If you doubt that it's the technology, just look what happened to poor Mr. Barichello. He was second in the Championship when he was with Ferrari and now he's nowhere, rarely ever scores a point. I doubt his skills deteriorated that much in the last few years.

If in sportscars it's not about the cars, why did Romain Dumas realistically have zero chance winning Le Mans this year in the #16 Pesca? I doubt his skills deteriorated so much after successful season and half in ALMS...

(By the way, Sebring '08 isn't very good example. Remember Audis and Pug broke down. You should have used as an example some of the Porsche wins from last season.)

I would say "best car" matters even more in sportscars. Especially currently because there are only couple of factory teams and betweem them and the private teams the technological gap is just so huge, that even if you put McNish/TomK/Capello in the Oreca-Courage, they would not win. Just like Kimi Raikkonen would not win in Toro Rosso.

-

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Mal

Ron & Bernie making derogatory comments

Referring to...? The Mummy (Bernie) never was never quoted in that IHT article.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by kdr

I personally hope sportscars never become as popular as F1...or else we'll have numerous threads just like this.

The interesting thing Ker is that here - right here - Sportscars are more popular than F1 - and we have the figures to prove it........

[Sarthe82]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The interesting thing Ker is that here - right here - Sportscars are more popular than F1 - and we have the figures to prove it........

So true! It’s almost like you enter a parallel universe when you get involved in F1, never seeing or indeed showing any interest in the outside world or other forms of racing as soon as you enter Bernie’s Stepford-like environment. I’m sure the mechanics are the only sane people involved with whole over-blown enterprise!

[Aysedasi]

They're very different disciplines, and I have no problem with people liking one and not the other (whichever way). I watch GPs, but I enjoy watching sportscars better. What worries me is when F1 'people' start talking about sportscars - they need to leave well alone.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Sarthe82

So true! It’s almost like you enter a parallel universe when you get involved in F1, never seeing or indeed showing any interest in the outside world or other forms of racing as soon as you enter Bernie’s Stepford-like environment. I’m sure the mechanics are the only sane people involved with whole over-blown enterprise!

Do F1 fans, in the main, follow other formulas, so many appear to be armchair supporters, following their countries latest driving star, then drifting away when their star fades, i.e. Spain and Alonso.

I'd suggest those who follow non F1 areas of the sport, have more than a passing knowledge of 2-3 other formulas, and understand and appreciate the contribution they make.

[Adam43]

I find I am far superior because I follow Sportscar.

It is obvious that F1 will attract a higher percentage of 'single area' viewer, because it attracts more viewers! The viewer who only has time/inclination to get into one area will probably chose F1 (or NASCAR).

The sooner that dies then they may watch something else (sportscar, cricket, bowls, ...?) and all the people employed in F1 can go and get jobs in something else. Hurrah.

[Aysedasi]

From F1 to bowls eh? At times, similar excitement levels too!

[Tom87]

Originally Posted by JAG

Do F1 fans, in the main, follow other formulas, so many appear to be armchair supporters, following their countries latest driving star, then drifting away when their star fades, i.e. Spain and Alonso.

I'd suggest those who follow non F1 areas of the sport, have more than a passing knowledge of 2-3 other formulas, and understand and appreciate the contribution they make.

Thats hardly suprising is it? I don't watch rugby except when the World Cup or 6 nations are on! Many people only watch F1 because of the interest generated by their nation star - if sportscars had the same media attention it would be exactly the same, a mixture of die-hard fans and casual supporters who watch for the spectacle and to support their country/driver/team.

[JAG]

But this all comes back to my original point, F1 is about the drivers, manufacturer's are a distant second, and some are now reasessing the value of their F1 investments.

Hence why the F1 establishment interferes when other series appear a slight threat, history repeating itself.

F1 has backed itself into a corner by discarding privateers, their only option is to attack the competition.