[BTCC] Round Four, Thruxton 03-04 Jun, Races 10,11&12

[v8supes]

I echo the thoughts here, the racing just isn’t as good this year. The grid also feels fairly spread. NAPA definitely a class above anyone else.

That being said the only class that had much entertainment this weekend were the Minis.

[Mike Harte]

I would say that it seems quite apparent that Thruxton is no longer a suitable track for modern day racing cars that are powerful or fairly powerful as there are only rare overtaking opportunities without taking fairly extreme risks as most of the corners are pretty high speed ones. This leads to mostly very high speed processional races.

However, I don't imagine that Thruxton will be taken off the calendar,well not whilst BARC are the responsible club for running the meetings.

I certainly admire the drivers maintaining those high speeds, as some of the in-car footage clearly demonstrated; so many cars on the very limit of adhesion, just as I remember it from 50 odd years ago although not quite at those speeds.

In answer to Evantra, although there are some highest speed corners at Oulton, there are at least some slow and slowish corners which do lead to some good overtaking opportunities. So I do think that it will be better; at least I hope so as I and my son will be attending our annual visit to a BTCC meeting. We'll be overlooking Hislops, which from our last visit there, saw many passing moves. Island is another good spot.

[stuart thompson]

My thoughts, TOCA were soon fast enough to slow WSR down when the 330 came out and threatened to dominate, yes Sutton is a class driver, but he has never dominated in such a way with some would argue were class of the field cars before , although Sutton is the dominant driver from Donington with Cammish it was clear the car was fast so it’s not just Sutton. You could argue against the parity and they have balanced between front and rear wheel drive but in GT if a ‘BRAND’ clearly has an advantage it soon gets BoP’ed.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by stuart thompson

My thoughts, TOCA were soon fast enough to slow WSR down when the 330 came out and threatened to dominate, yes Sutton is a class driver, but he has never dominated in such a way with some would argue were class of the field cars before , although Sutton is the dominant driver from Donington with Cammish it was clear the car was fast so it’s not just Sutton. You could argue against the parity and they have balanced between front and rear wheel drive but in GT if a ‘BRAND’ clearly has an advantage it soon gets BoP’ed.

I would agree. If it were down to me and to let them make instant changes without the need for re-engineering the car, id say the BMW's can lose 20kg from their base weight and allow them to run a few mm lower ride height. Things like removing the start line disadvantage is too political (sadly) so that would probably need to stay as it is and allowing them to place the ballast box in another location, again would need to be engineered and would probably affect the setups they are using today.

[Adamcas87]

Originally Posted by stuart thompson

My thoughts, TOCA were soon fast enough to slow WSR down when the 330 came out and threatened to dominate, yes Sutton is a class driver, but he has never dominated in such a way with some would argue were class of the field cars before , although Sutton is the dominant driver from Donington with Cammish it was clear the car was fast so it’s not just Sutton. You could argue against the parity and they have balanced between front and rear wheel drive but in GT if a ‘BRAND’ clearly has an advantage it soon gets BoP’ed.

It was mentioned quite a lot over the weekend that the focus is low down in the speed traps and that the chassis is the difference
Clearly Napa have done a good job over the winter in improving that car

What the problem is maybe it’s the hybrid? I don’t see it been a real advantage round Thruxton but has it really made a difference in any other round this year or last year? Maybe bring back the tyre option for Thruxton?

But I personally have heard enough of the track limits debate already! there needs to be clarity asap and leave it at that

I don’t remember a BTCC race let alone 3 spreading out as quickly as it did this weekend

It’s rare you get a BTCC season like this but Snetterton wasn’t great and Thruxton was difficult to watch

You have to say it’s the best driver in the best car with Sutton and the focus

[Greem]

Sutton is brilliant. Sutton's car and race engineer are also brilliant. The car is also notably fantastic running in clear air, hence Sutton not doing so well in R3.

If it was just the car, then Rowbo & Osborne would be up there fighting with Sutton. They aren't. In fact, reverse grid races notwithstanding, they're nowhere near.

How do you hobble brilliance, fairly?

[Adamcas87]

Originally Posted by Greem

Sutton is brilliant. Sutton's car and race engineer are also brilliant. The car is also notably fantastic running in clear air, hence Sutton not doing so well in R3.

If it was just the car, then Rowbo & Osborne would be up there fighting with Sutton. They aren't. In fact, reverse grid races notwithstanding, they're nowhere near.
How do you hobble brilliance, fairly?

Exactly, hit the nail on the head

[Craner Curves]

I'll repeat what I said after Brands. Most of those under the age of 25 will not know the BTCC without success ballast and those who are old enough are accustomed to it as well. So to see one particular driver dominate is strange to a lot of people. I honestly think that's all it is.

I'll leave it to crmalcolm to come up with the stats about wins by one driver in the first 12 races. ??

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Adamcas87

It was mentioned quite a lot over the weekend that the focus is low down in the speed traps and that the chassis is the difference
Clearly Napa have done a good job over the winter in improving that car

What the problem is maybe it’s the hybrid? I don’t see it been a real advantage round Thruxton but has it really made a difference in any other round this year or last year? Maybe bring back the tyre option for Thruxton?

But I personally have heard enough of the track limits debate already! there needs to be clarity asap and leave it at that

I don’t remember a BTCC race let alone 3 spreading out as quickly as it did this weekend

It’s rare you get a BTCC season like this but Snetterton wasn’t great and Thruxton was difficult to watch

You have to say it’s the best driver in the best car with Sutton and the focus

True, the car doesnt feature high up in the speed traps, however I am not sure how these engines are tested, but its possible to have a strong engine if the peak power is coming in at a lower rev range. The old Audi ST engine was famous for this, it has extraordinary torque at 6500 - 7500 which is where the corner exits happen.

[stuart thompson]

I can think back to 1987, Rouse vs Sytner, it was different those days , multi class racing where the championship could be won by a class c Corolla. Our perception of racing has been changed through the years due to organising clubs attempts to make more of a show. BTCC is a show now so Mr Gow has made it as entertaining as he can, unfortunately a one off driver in Sutton has come along and made this show boring so Mr Gow needs to work out how to make his show interesting again.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by stuart thompson

BTCC is a show now so Mr Gow has made it as entertaining as he can, unfortunately a one off driver in Sutton has come along and made this show boring so Mr Gow needs to work out how to make his show interesting again.

I don't think you can lay the entire blame at Sutton's feet. Even if you ignore Sutton running of into the distance, the first 2 races were hardly the most exciting races. The finishing order for first 7 in race 2 were the same as the finishing order in race 1. Race 2 saw only 5 or 6 overtakes across the entire top ten.

When the ITV presenters, whose job is to talk up the series, are basically saying that it was a very exciting meeting, then you know you have a problem.

[BTCC frog]

It’s not boring because of Sutton! Take Sutton away and the races are exactly the same, just with Ingram winning race one and two from pole.

The problem is that the hybrid is ineffective and not at all a handicap, so the situation is exactly the same in qualifying, race one and race two, and if the cars are already in pace order you don’t get any action in races like this.

The solution is to bring back success ballast, but for qualifying and race two only.

To try to peg back the Focus would solve nothing, and it would punish the team who have done the best job. But it is mainly Sutton who is making the difference because he is an outstanding driver. Don’t forget that Cammish almost won the championship in 2019, and he is not finishing second every time.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

It’s not boring because of Sutton! Take Sutton away and the races are exactly the same, just with Ingram winning race one and two from pole.

The problem is that the hybrid is ineffective and not at all a handicap, so the situation is exactly the same in qualifying, race one and race two, and if the cars are already in pace order you don’t get any action in races like this.

The solution is to bring back success ballast, but for qualifying and race two only.

To try to peg back the Focus would solve nothing, and it would punish the team who have done the best job. But it is mainly Sutton who is making the difference because he is an outstanding driver. Don’t forget that Cammish almost won the championship in 2019, and he is not finishing second every time.

Punishing a team for doing a “good job” has happened many times before now.

In terms of the racing, I’ve long held the belief there should be an alternative quali solution for race 2. Maybe have two sessions of 20 mins or something because race 2 is just the finishing order of race 1 with all the fastest guys at the front anyway. If they had an additional session or a super pole type session then it would jumble the order more for the second race.

[Adamcas87]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Punishing a team for doing a “good job” has happened many times before now.

In terms of the racing, I’ve long held the belief there should be an alternative quali solution for race 2. Maybe have two sessions of 20 mins or something because race 2 is just the finishing order of race 1 with all the fastest guys at the front anyway. If they had an additional session or a super pole type session then it would jumble the order more for the second race.

Yeah I agree race 2 needs something, I think a super pole type session would be good or maybe take second fastest times from Qualifying

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

LOL

Oneil made fun of the hybrid during classic Mini race

He also made me laugh saying that The BTCC was a feeder series for the Miglia's! (With Smith & Jordan racing).

[S griffin]

I don't think the BTCC is in danger, but the Minis are something to watch. Great to have the likes of Smith and Jordan racing I agree, shouldn't have been too hard to persuade them though

[Mike Harte]

With reference to Sutton's 12th place in R3, a thought occurred to me whether he and the team actually chose not to push too much and so try to climb up the order. He knew that staying where he was meant that he would still finish the day leading the championship, but, more importantly, would give less ammunition to others to moan about his ability and so demand that his or all the Fords should be pegged back.

I'm not saying that that is what happened, but it really wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

He also made me laugh saying that The BTCC was a feeder series for the Miglia's! (With Smith & Jordan racing).

The miglias ate pretty similar to btcc in a sense. The front end of one bares little resemblance to the orig mini under the hood, and you need a big budget (for club racing anyway) to run one.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

With reference to Sutton's 12th place in R3, a thought occurred to me whether he and the team actually chose not to push too much and so try to climb up the order. He knew that staying where he was meant that he would still finish the day leading the championship, but, more importantly, would give less ammunition to others to moan about his ability and so demand that his or all the Fords should be pegged back.

I'm not saying that that is what happened, but it really wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I can see the thinking behind that - but if it was a team decision to 'sandbag', Rowbottom undermined it!!

I also don't think that Sutton was holding back - he looked to be trying to make a move on a few occasions (and did make up places for a while).

Interesting thought though.

[Mike Harte]

He wouldn't have held back in the early years, but he proved at the Brands final that he now thinks about the possible consequences for pushing it to much, as he did at Croft a few years ago, making a lunge at the hairpin which resulted in a coming together which put him out of the race. And he knew he didn't need to do it because his main rival, Turkington had beached the BMW on the first lap.

At, was his last championship win in the final race, he knew that he didn't need to push to improve his position, against his natural way of racing, because his position guaranteed him the championship.

[mprmke]

Don't want to see Sutton/NAPA pegged back, and there's no cause to do that, but I'd like to see the RWD cars have their restrictions removed. I didn't agree with them in the first place, as there are a number of circuits/situations where they are at a natural disadvantage, so they should be allowed to make the most of their advantages when they have them.

The Hybrid system doesn't work as well as the ballast did by a long way, but in some ways I never wanted to see things "equalised" quite that much. Had we had something working like the Hybrid does now in previous years, then Turkington would have had double the Championships that he does now.

[touring fan01]

im really surprised only 14 points difference sutton to ingram

championship is a lot closer than i thought at moment at least

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

With reference to Sutton's 12th place in R3, a thought occurred to me whether he and the team actually chose not to push too much and so try to climb up the order. He knew that staying where he was meant that he would still finish the day leading the championship, but, more importantly, would give less ammunition to others to moan about his ability and so demand that his or all the Fords should be pegged back.

I'm not saying that that is what happened, but it really wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I thought this too. The way he went in R1 and R2 I thought he would probably win R3, but he made zero progress, which was a surprise.

[schanche]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I thought this too. The way he went in R1 and R2 I thought he would probably win R3, but he made zero progress, which was a surprise.

I read somewhere yesterday that the Ford in clean air is a weapon but when following it makes things a little challenging, Cook Ingram and Sutton were close all through the 3rd race and pretty on par with one another.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I thought this too. The way he went in R1 and R2 I thought he would probably win R3, but he made zero progress, which was a surprise.

Im sure the car in traffic is different to running at the front.