Andretti F1 - 2025

[Tourer]

The existing American F1 team has doubts about introducing an 11th team now.

Even if FOM is really keen to bring Andretti in, it'll need to manage its relationship with the existing teams and convince them - quite a tightrope to be walked.

[Teretonga]

If the anti-competitive thing comes to a head and goes off to court and the judge decides that declining Andretti is anti-competitive, and they can't race in the EU until its resolved....

That would either be the end of the opposition or a significant cut in the value of F1.

It probably won't happen so we shouldn't hold our breath, but it is an attractive thought...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The existing American F1 team has doubts about introducing an 11th team now.

Even if FOM is really keen to bring Andretti in, it'll need to manage its relationship with the existing teams and convince them - quite a tightrope to be walked.

I saw that article earlier. I love the grasping for straws that effectively says if we have another pandemic that some of the teams might not survive if the pie is not grown bigger fast enough.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I saw that article earlier. I love the grasping for straws that effectively says if we have another pandemic that some of the teams might not survive if the pie is not grown bigger fast enough.

Richard

Yep - although I think that the point being made is that after a tough time with pandemic, teams are still recovering & another tough time for whatever reason could expose some of them.

Same as any business really.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If the anti-competitive thing comes to a head and goes off to court and the judge decides that declining Andretti is anti-competitive, and they can't race in the EU until its resolved....

That would either be the end of the opposition or a significant cut in the value of F1.

It probably won't happen so we shouldn't hold our breath, but it is an attractive thought...

Now that could be the catalyst for really interesting changes.The FIA seem keen to have more cars and should there be a decision that refusing a new team is breaching competition laws,I would guess that leaves the FIA clear of blame.It might also mean that they could seek opinion on whether such a decision would void the contract with the commercial rights holder.In which case the rights might be available for acquisition by a new CRH.What was that about revised value?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If the anti-competitive thing comes to a head and goes off to court and the judge decides that declining Andretti is anti-competitive, and they can't race in the EU until its resolved....

That would either be the end of the opposition or a significant cut in the value of F1.

It probably won't happen so we shouldn't hold our breath, but it is an attractive thought...

I'm intrigued to see how the EU will act on this, considering their stance on competition and their anti-trust laws.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm intrigued to see how the EU will act on this, considering their stance on competition and their anti-trust laws.

Well, the commission has shown in the past that they are not afraid to take on F1; that's what led to the sale of FOM to Mr E.

[Tourer]

Some analysis from Jonathon Noble in Autosport. One interesting point to me is that less than half the existing circuits have room for an 11th team as they are currently built, so changes will need to be made with attendant costs. Must admit that I thought that was a red herring when both Wolff and Horner mentioned it but it could be a real thing. Does make me wonder how the FIA could approve an 11th team with so many circuits not currently having the space.

It feels like the 11th team / Andretti topic is something of a pawn in the overall "game" between FIA and FOM re who gets what revenue - even Ben Sulayem says that it is all about money.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm intrigued to see how the EU will act on this, considering their stance on competition and their anti-trust laws.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Well, the commission has shown in the past that they are not afraid to take on F1; that's what led to the sale of FOM to Mr E.

That's assuming that the commission is able to do anything at all. If the Concorde Agreement operates under UK law, then the the EU wouldn't have any say in the matter would it?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Some analysis from Jonathon Noble in Autosport. One interesting point to me is that less than half the existing circuits have room for an 11th team as they are currently built, so changes will need to be made with attendant costs. Must admit that I thought that was a red herring when both Wolff and Horner mentioned it but it could be a real thing. Does make me wonder how the FIA could approve an 11th team with so many circuits not currently having the space.

It feels like the 11th team / Andretti topic is something of a pawn in the overall "game" between FIA and FOM re who gets what revenue - even Ben Sulayem says that it is all about money.

But how true is it? WEC is run at tracks that mainly have grade 1 facilities and thy are cautious about the number of garages for a grid, like 38 or 40 or 42 entrants...

So all the circuits should have space for all the entrants.
A few years ago IndyCar ran at COTA with 27 starters, and they all had enough room and enough garages.
So what's the problem?
The FIA hasn't started giving license's to tracks that can't accommodate a WEC field so how do ten teams fill the space for 40 garages?

Other series exist with much less space.
Has F1 just become accustomed to spreading themselves out and taking up more space and now they are using that as a pretext for not having enough space?

All the talk by the teams is just straw man rhetoric and only people who don't have a thought are taken in by it.

[GTRMagic]

In the old days, if Mr E had wanted something like this, he would have privately pushed his teams into it, with a delicious, sweet tasting carrot.. or threatened them with expulsion.. same same..

Now we have to sit in public and wait for the other shoe to drop..

Or Andretti to see the follow of starting from zero and talking to Aston Martin and or Renault about juicing a startup with a takeover…

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

But how true is it? WEC is run at tracks that mainly have grade 1 facilities and thy are cautious about the number of garages for a grid, like 38 or 40 or 42 entrants...

So all the circuits should have space for all the entrants.
A few years ago IndyCar ran at COTA with 27 starters, and they all had enough room and enough garages.
So what's the problem?
The FIA hasn't started giving license's to tracks that can't accommodate a WEC field so how do ten teams fill the space for 40 garages?

Other series exist with much less space.
Has F1 just become accustomed to spreading themselves out and taking up more space and now they are using that as a pretext for not having enough space?

All the talk by the teams is just straw man rhetoric and only people who don't have a thought are taken in by it.

The top teams generally get 4 boxes, the rest 3. Then there’s the FIA etc. etc.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Other series exist with much less space.
Has F1 just become accustomed to spreading themselves out and taking up more space and now they are using that as a pretext for not having enough space?

All the talk by the teams is just straw man rhetoric and only people who don't have a thought are taken in by it.

No question that F1 has spread out over time - only need to see the telecasts from the paddock area to see that. It also allows higher levels of sponsor engagement, which then tends to be included in sponsor contract deliverables. So not sure that it is being used as a pretext but putting the genie back in the bottle may not be an easy or straightforward option. Personally, I do take a thought, quite often in fact and I can see the problem as real enough (for now) and any resolution needing give and take.

Originally Posted by peebee2

The top teams generally get 4 boxes, the rest 3. Then there’s the FIA etc. etc.

Yep - it's a large travelling circus, no doubt about that.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The top teams generally get 4 boxes, the rest 3. Then there’s the FIA etc. etc.

Wow, maybe that is a problem that should be addressed. Sounds like if the facility could support 20 teams, F1 would find a way to eat up all of the space with just 10 teams.

Finally monsieur a wafer-thin mint.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Wow, maybe that is a problem that should be addressed. Sounds like if the facility could support 20 teams, F1 would find a way to eat up all of the space with just 10 teams.

Finally monsieur a wafer-thin mint.

Richard

It is of course partially driven by the calendar and large number of races now - means more gear is freighted in advance and storage space is needed for the freight containers. Also natural result of growing bigger year on year and of course the room being there to be filled (on the basis that the gear needed expands to fill the available space).

For sure the teams could free up space but it'll not be the work of a moment and will need some cooperation.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Wow, maybe that is a problem that should be addressed. Sounds like if the facility could support 20 teams, F1 would find a way to eat up all of the space with just 10 teams.

The do pretty much need the space. Cars are massive. Gearbox sub-assembly, and batteries/regen take up most of a garage by themselves.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Tourer

That's assuming that the commission is able to do anything at all. If the Concorde Agreement operates under UK law, then the the EU wouldn't have any say in the matter would it?

I believe that the EU Commission would have concerns if F1 races within EU boundaries. Like anything that those outside the EU wish to "import" into the EU area needs to meet EU standards and regulations, no matter whether it be foodstuffs or racing.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The top teams generally get 4 boxes, the rest 3. Then there’s the FIA etc. etc.

Roughly what is the split between 4 and 3 box teams?

For instance, if 3 or more teams are currently using 4 boxes, then making them use 3 boxes only would free up space for another team.


EDIT - just checked the 2023 Monza GP, which gives the following garage allocations (of the 60 garages available):

Williams 4.5
Alpha Tauri 5.5
Haas 4.5
Aston Martin 4.5
Alfa Romeo 5.5
McLaren 4.5
Alpine 5.5
Mercedes 4.5
Ferrari 5 (the only team not sharing with another user )
Red Bull 4.5

The limiting factor seems to be pit box positions (in relation to the garages). If you placed the first pit box earlier in the lane, and gave all teams 4.5 garages only, then there is more than enough room for an 11th team.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Roughly what is the split between 4 and 3 box teams?

For instance, if 3 or more teams are currently using 4 boxes, then making them use 3 boxes only would free up space for another team.


EDIT - just checked the 2023 Monza GP, which gives the following garage allocations (of the 60 garages available):

Williams 4.5
Alpha Tauri 5.5
Haas 4.5
Aston Martin 4.5
Alfa Romeo 5.5
McLaren 4.5
Alpine 5.5
Mercedes 4.5
Ferrari 5 (the only team not sharing with another user )
Red Bull 4.5

The limiting factor seems to be pit box positions (in relation to the garages). If you placed the first pit box earlier in the lane, and gave all teams 4.5 garages only, then there is more than enough room for an 11th team.

Clearly some places do vary. Monza has very long but VERY narrow boxes - unique in current F1 IIRC, and some have fixtures/fittings/pillars.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The existing American F1 team has doubts about introducing an 11th team now.

Even if FOM is really keen to bring Andretti in, it'll need to manage its relationship with the existing teams and convince them - quite a tightrope to be walked.

You mean the team that introduced a full on B-spec car that was worse on eating its tyres than the one they started the year with?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

You mean the team that introduced a full on B-spec car that was worse on eating its tyres than the one they started the year with?

The tyre eating may well be a thing of the past as the team gets the cars tuned - only 1 hour of practice time at Austin of course, Aston struggled with new bits & of course MB & Ferrari got it wrong too.

[Richard C]

Interesting article that delves into the financial impact of an 11th team...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...grid/10537382/

My quick read is that from a profit sharing perspective the $200M anti-dilution fee should not be a problem. It doesn't go into the topic of sponsorship competition. What I mean by that is that lets assume the number of potential F1 sponsors if fixed any any new team will reduce sponsorship income available to other teams. Not that I believe that is a real issue. But overall, I would argue that impact to revenue is a non-issue.

The larger issue is that the teams are concerned about reduction in "team valuation". So the article calls out that teams are roughly worth $1B. So using super simple view of this (all teams being equal, etc.), all teams together are worth $10B. And that the teams are saying no matter how many teams might exist, all teams together can't go beyond that $10B value. So the size of the pie is fixed. So when the 11th team shows up, the per team value drops to $909M with each team loosing $91M (9.1%) in value immediately. I hope my math is right

I know that company valuation primarily matters as it is used to define a sale price. I know it can drive other things as well. I don't buy into the idea that the pie can't grow. I think really is that teams know the pie can grow and shrink, but regardless of the direction, they want a 1/10th slice and not a 1/11th slice. And slice is of the overall market share. They don't want to see their market share drop. There may be no conditions in which they welcome an 11th team. It seems as simple as that to me.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

And they want the world to believe that F1 is a sport.

[Tourer]

Michael Andretti says that F1 teams think his crew are a bunch of hillbillies. He's probably right to an extent anyway, the existing teams may well have that view and that leads to doubts about what an Andretti team would add to the sport.

I would also expect that Michael's own poor record as an F1 driver would colour the view of some existing team people but hopefully everyone gets past all that and Andretti gets a guernsey - can't imagine that the team will do anything special to begin with but that's all part of the journey.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Tourer

I would also expect that Michael's own poor record as an F1 driver would colour the view of some existing team

They shouldn't, Prost was one of the best of all time but an awful team owner.