Timing Transponders

[Adam43]

I think that the mst stuff is literately the order in which they cross the line (broken down with respect to the leaders lap). The other data is extracted from this.

[Adam43]

After my rather long explanation of how to export the data out of one of the mst pdf files (a few posts ago) I see that we can no longer extract the data.

I downloaded the latest data for my last race from mst and see that the ability to copy and paste from the pdf file has been disabled.

I think that this is a bit of a shame. It was great to play with your laptimes. Perhaps they are scared abotu copyright etc...

[Tony Harman]

You should mail MST Adam. WE are the people paying for this service effectively so they should be giving us access to all the data.
An interesting development at Croft this past weekend. The timing service was provided by S.M.A.R.T. who I think are based in Scotland and don't appear to have a website, but I digress.
There was a chap there from AMB in Holland who was tracking down people who had Orange coloured transponders (RAM 290) and was asking us to replace them with the Red ones (260 DP). The official reason was that the Orange ones seemed to have a weak signal but in conversation he revealed that in fact they were a cheaper model....

[woodyracing]

can these transponders give you an in "in-car" display of the lap times, or are they just for the officials back in the pits ?

it all sounds like a messy situation anyway.

[Tony Harman]

can these transponders give you an in "in-car" display of the lap times, or are they just for the officials back in the pits ?
No in-car displays I'm afraid Woody, it's just to cut down on the number of paid timekeepers we need per meeting. Although they did say that "at some circuits" we would have the facility to get the times directly in the pit lane - of course don't know what equipment you might need and when it might happen..... oink oink -- oink oink... blimey that one was so low nearly took my hat off !!!

[Adam43]

Unfortunately no! You can buy an in car timing system for about £160. This requires a timing beam to be placed on the pitwall.

The mst website is very good and provides loads of information for the competitor. It's just a shame that they have made the information hard to get at.

I haven't experienced any of the problems with dodgy/cheap transponders...

[Adam43]

Just beat me there Tony!

I remember all the wonderful things that were promised! It is a good system and the information that is available is top, but at the end of the day we still wait for the practice times to come of the photocopier.

[RaceTime]

Originally posted by Tony Harman
it's just to cut down on the number of paid timekeepers we need per meeting. Although they did say that "at some circuits" we would have the facility to get the times directly in the pit lane - of course don't know what equipment you might need and when it might happen..... oink oink -- oink oink... blimey that one was so low nearly took my hat off !!!

If I can add the Australian experience withthe introduction of electronic timing here.

The intention here was also to cut down the number of timekeepers (I have been one for 30 years now...) - however, the reality was that whilst my service cut down from between 6-12 per meeting to 1 to 2, the majority of other tracks timing crews actually *increased* their numbers because instead of simply using the electronic system to their benefit and aid, they simply tacked the electronic timing component on TOP of their manual systems and continue to run, effectively, two systems side by side.

Depending on the software used, it is possible to eliminate the manual timing component of timing BUT you need two things - faith in the electronic system (we have been using it here since it was introduced in 1989 on our Super Speedway at Calder and 1994 for the remainder of car motor racing - bikes still haven't made up their minds!!!) and also a timing crew that is prepared to accept electronic timing and supplement it with other, more modern means of timing backup.

For my system my backups consist of laser/light beams across the start/finish line and video cameras on the start/finish line. One person only recording number is sufficient these days.

As for transmissions of results - I have been using small local TV transmitters since around 1987 - even at club level race meetings. This gave the ability for anyone with a portable TV to pick up the signal. This isn't expensive - a PC with TV output card, small RF transmitter and you are off and running. Naturally the more power in the transmitter, the higher the initial cost but it is still a once only costs and is NOT that expensive (around $3,500 for a 2 to 5 watt RF transmitter compared to a transmitter cost of $500 (Australian dollars of course).

My final comment would be on the access to data - personally I find it reprehensible that ANY timekeeper or timing crew only make their information available in such a way that it cannot be downloaded, re-used or made available in a data file for later analysis. This, to me, smacks of paranoia to the highest order. We have one timekeeper in Australia who refuses to make his data available unless he is paid extra money for, literally, clicking one additional menu option per event and plugging a phone line into a modem at the start of the event (he doesn't even have to pay for the phone calls!!)

[Tony Harman]

Thanks for your feedback RaceTime. Very interesting to get views from the timing booth. I think one of the problems here in UK has been lack of communication from and with MST, most of us drivers don't really know what goes on with the timekeepers and MST and what their intentions are, but the impression we are getting is not a good one. People were annoyed by the whole way the transponders were introduced without sufficient information and are now seeming to have further problems, (see also additional transponders thread in this forum following "teething problems").
I would be most dissapointed if following the introduction of transponders they keep the number of timekeepers up because they don't "believe" in the system.

[RaceTime]

IN Australia we used a system called DATA-1 - whilst a very good system and, in many ways, better than AMB (both have their strengths and weaknesses BTW) but has suffered in the past few years by lack of development and two major management/ownership changes. DATA-1 was designed back in 1989 for NASCAR racing and was extremely effective - but the unit in use today is virtuall no different from the one introduced for competitors in 1994.

AMB OTOH has continued to develop their systems but - always a but, isn't there? - they are pricey particularly if you want the Pro systems.

I currently use DATA-1 in Oz on numerous car races as well as 24 hour Human Powered Vehicle events run for school kids - with up to 175 vehicles running in the one event it certainly taxes the systems we use.

I am in the process, however, of trying to move these 24 hour events to AMB - their bigest benefit is that they can go anywhere on the vehivle - something DATA-1 cannot do.

On a competitors side, however, Australia introduced electronic timing in 1994 in such a way that all drivers had to have their own transmitter - this took the burdon of providing them off the timekeepers and circuits and placed it on the drivers. Sure, it costs them $500 per transmitter - but this is a once off purchase and we only get the odd complaint now because it has helped streamline results so much. If you take a look at some of the results on my web site you will see what I mean and what can be done with races - eg try this recent V8 Supercar meeting here http://www.racetime.com.au/?event=e0202 and pick, say Race 10 - the third V8 race. From that screen you get the normal information, and on the adjoining screens (selectable fromthe menu on the top left, full lap charts and individual lap times - colour coded to highlight safety cars (where applicable), pit stops, red flags, black flags etc. And this information is also available, at the track, immediately after every race.

Will have to stay in touch and see how things go with their introduction in the UK.

[miata]

To add a little on the Data-1 system, the unit that goes in the car is called Dorian. Dorian is a very sturdy beast, we have two working units in our household. One is 7 years old, spent 3 months buried in the mud at Phillip Island and still works beautifully today.

[RaceTime]

Not quite right - the company that designed and manufactures it is calle Dorian Industries - the unit's name is DATA-1 - stands for Dorian Automatic TIming Apparatus - 1. The blue units you have are called (by model name) a Tx8000. The black units we hire out are called Tx254's and the small ones used for motorcycle and go-kart racing are called TxMicro's - however, they all share the total available number racnge of just over 8,000 numbers (as compared to AMB's 9,999,999 available