Running wide

[Peter Mallett]

Thought you'd come back with that. You may wish to look at a few pics of your racing, I bet you'll find you were on the kerbs in quite a few. Sorry this reg is too restrictive and ill thought out as it stands.

BTW Al, the Karussel was a ditch at the side of a corner on the Nurburgring, Rosemeyer at al used it to go through the corner faster. The powers that be decided to make it a banked curve after 1938(?).

[Al Weyman]

Oh I am guilty as charged Pete but only because if everyone else is doing it what choice does one have it doesnt make it right though. we have been asked specifically by JP at his tracks to stay off the kerbs and I have tried to comply only to see guys carry on doing it so IMHO the rule needs clarification and some penal clout.

[one-two]

The proposed changes are inappropriate, in my view, and also unclear. The subject in clause b is a wheel rather than the car, as I read it, yet it's presumably the car in clause c?

[Al Weyman]

Surely the fact thats its 'up for consultation' or discussion will iron out any anomalys that appear in the wording. May even end up with the two wheel rule but with a specific penalty for transgression and proper guide lines.

[one-two]

Quite possibly - but you need to say how much of the car needs to be "off" before the car itself is judged to be "off". The present wording does that and the proposed change doesn't. More generally, for those of us in historic racing, the controlled, within-limits use of kerbs was part of what went on in period so why are we so keen to stop it now? That is not an argument in favour of uncontrolled, beyond-limits use - but the present wording is surely sufficient to stop that if/when enforced.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Well if a driver cannot judge a car through two white lines maybe he should concider his future in the sport, ......... If cars have been riding kerbs for all this time just maybe now is the time to bring it to an end. It just pees me off when I hear guys bragging that they set their cars up to deliberately ride the kerbs, that cannot be right surely.

I don't often disagree with Mr Mallett, nor do I always agree with Al.

The problem with 'allowing' 2 wheels off, is that effective puts 80% of the width of the car off the circuit and you're back to the BTCC again!

[Al Weyman]

I agree John and think the no wheels off is a better solution. Could track damage and maintenance be part of the equation why pressure is now being exerted.

[terence]

Perhaps a course on driving in between track limits could be in order? Perhaps a compulsory course over here on Nurburgring?,you will learn where the track sides are!!!
How long before drivers with antiquated oil filled shockers learn that running kerbs overheats the oil?There are so many reasons ,apart from it not being the correct way to drive,why this habit needs stopping sooner rather than later.
[Anyway,I'm off to Spa,you know,where if you go two off on Le Raddion you could well get reported?] bye.

[barnettracing]

The problem is two-fold;

a) The newly written regs (which are up for consultation, not implementation, at the moment) are incredibly ambiguous. It appears that they now allow the kerbs as part of the track, rather than placing them outside the track limits. However, it is not clear. Also, it isn't explicitly clear how many wheels (if any) are allowed 'off track'.

b) It is all well and good to create new legislation (though personally the current 'two off good, four off bad, works perfectly well) but, if the circuit owners are still going to leave kerbs around the circuit then in all likelihood they will get used at certain times. In my opinion, this smacks of Mr Palmer shifting his weight around because he doesn't like painting kerbs.


Jim Clark, 1966.

Using more than the 'track limits' isn't a new phenomenon as has been pointed out. Under the proposed change, it seems it would make things like this (taken in 1966 as to prove my above point) against the rules . It seems incredibly draconian to me. What would happen next? Circuit owners gradually moving the white lines in a few feet to protect the grass edges? Eventually we'd be running around single file.

[Greem]

The proposal as written means kerbs are regarded as part of the circuit, where currently they are not. Thus "riding the kerb" is permissible but putting a wheel over is not.

From the perspective of someone who's spent some time already this year calling in 4WO on a reasonably frequent basis I can't make my mind up about this proposal. I can see why it's needed (and largely speaking it's not this forum's residents who need it applying) but dread to think how busy we're all going to be...

[barnettracing]

I'm not sure that is what the proposed change does say though. As Magneton has pointed out on the other thread dealing with this, the change reads thus;

"the edge of the track shall be defined by white lines and any kerbs. Kerbs will be indicated by painting alternate colours, normally red/white onto the track surface..."

This suggests that, as per now, the kerbs will remain outside of the track limits. However, because of the (ambiguous) change to how many wheels are allowed off, you will not be allowed to use them without penalty.

It means that pretty much every corner in UK motorsport will change, as in every series you use two wheels on the apex kerb and two wheels on the exit kerb. It's surely going to lead to even more work for observers/CoCs than the directive that was (correctly) issued this year.

[Peter Mallett]

Alternatively the race speeds will slow down because you can't use as much track width. However I can see places such as Cadwell and Lydden, falling by the wayside because they are too narrow for overtaking.

This year's directive works well, why change it?

[McMuttley]

Originally Posted by terence bower

There are so many reasons ,apart from it not being the correct way to drive,why this habit needs stopping sooner rather than later..

Hang on, so, for example, at Brands Indy, you're saying its wrong to run two left wheels over the apex kerb at say surtees!

Jeez, lets not sanitise the sport so that it just becomes pointless.

Just ping the frekking touring cars guys and teach them the rules and don't take the interest out of it for the rest if us.

[MGDavid]

A fundamental problem is that not only cannot the MSA write good English, but also many customers cannot comprehend it.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

This year's directive works well, why change it?

Exactly. I thought it struck the perfect blend of draconian and common sense. At the end of the day, most of the racing that takes place in the UK is amateur, where the competitors spend vast quantities of money (because of the circuits' hire prices) to race. If the rules suddenly become vastly draconian, to the point that it becomes an exercise in discretion it will, in my opinion, negatively affect the industry. As many have said, spectators (the few that turn up to club meetings) like to see a little bit of 'action' in the way of cars running wide.

On another thread, it was talked about how spectators don't often appreciated the challenge of race car driving. If suddenly all the cars are not allowed to use the kerbs/go outside the track limits (something that has being going on since the dawn of motor racing) then it will look even more sanitised and 'easy'.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

A fundamental problem is that not only cannot the MSA write good English

Did you do that on purpose ?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Did you do that on purpose ?

MGD - QED

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by midgetman

MGD - QED

That's what I'm wondering.

[one-two]

What a wonderful photo of Jim Clark. Clearly he needs to go on one of Terry's courses.

[barnettracing]

Even on the Nordschleife there are kerbs that are used though.

It all depends on whether kerbs are in or out? If they're inside the track limits then fine, this doesn't seem like much more of an extension than the directive that was seen at the start of 2012. If they are out (as Al, and a few others, seems to want) then frankly I'd find it ridiculous.

[McMuttley]

Just looked at the tv recording of the MSA FF at Brands GP two weeks ago. The whole of the Brands GP circuit on both sides of the track has a white line inside the kerb, so any kerb inside or out would thus be out of bounds.

I guess if you like to officiate then you could be busy in the future, the rest of us will probably spend as much time driving slowly along the pit lane as going slowly round the track between the white lines whilst boring all the spectators!

[Al Weyman]

Just keep on the track whats the problem why the fuss? If thats the part of the track that they say we use then just use it just why do you have to go two wheels off and up and over the kerb? Even that picture of the Cortina shows barely half a wheel off the track back 'in the day' so IMHO this kerb hopping nonscense is a recent phenomenom. I am sure when I was at Daytona the Chief Clerk in his address to the racers pointed out in no uncertain terms, the black stuff is ours the rest is theirs and you will be penalised for consistant transgressions so its not just here. BTW I am certain with the skills Clark possessed he would have been still up the front putting on a show without going over the line if that was the rule not so sure about some other latter day heros though .

[midgetman]

Of course, Clark didn't actually have the inside front wheel on the ground so he wasn't damaging the circuit owner's grass

McMuttley - do you really, seriously propose that the Porsche in the above picture will be less spectacular for not taking the kerb? Or that you will be substantially slower for not taking the kerb? Half the time it's because you've got the turn in point wrong, and you're slower than a driver inside the kerbs who isn't so careless.

I was against this proposal originally, but the comments on this thread have swayed me towards agreeing with it!

[McMuttley]

I suspect midgetman may be a former liberal democrat - too easily swayed !

I'm slow whatever route I take!!

[barnettracing]

Having read through the rules again and discussed them with my 'team manager' (dad), I think they are actually a good thing. The kerbs appear to be part of the circuit now which means, on the whole, there should be no real change to the vast majority of racers.

As an example, at Brands Hatch, Graham Hill Bend would be slightly different as currently you often put the outside two wheels over the exit kerb onto the grass-crete, rubbing the inside wheels up against the white lines. In 2013, you would only be allowed to put your outside wheels up to the outside edge of the painted kerb.

However, under the current wording, a kerb does become slightly ambiguous. Can it only be used if it is painted red/white? For example, Paddock Hill's exit kerb is red/white and then green. Would we only be able to use the striped bit? Because the regs use the word 'alternative' (rather than the correct 'alternate') you could put four wheels onto the green bit and argue that the green is an 'alternative' colour.

Although I now agree with the new rule (having cleared up its meaning), I still think it is going to cause a lot of visits for the CoC at the start of the year. Also, it will call into question the effectiveness of each Observer. Although they are 'judges of fact', if you get a drive through, should you not be able to prove that you didn't gain an advantage? Also, should they not have to provide proof to show you did it?