IMSA You can’t get excited about a race with these safety car and stoppage rules

[GT3_Fan]

Was a safety car in the pit lane I might add for the Lexus fire really needed? After we had hours of green flag racing. I was so angry at that. That was a far worse issue than throwing the checkered flag a minute early.

Perhaps they threw the caution out for "the show"? it was not needed #31 and #7 were already close.

Thank goodness the Risi Ferrari held on. I still consider them having one by 1 lap. That #77 Porsche did not deserve that lap back.

[Adam43]

If they are going to throw a flag for a car on fire I am not going to complain.

If anything I am constantly surprised that they don’t use the FCY more. Sometimes we have stricken cars for much longer than I find comfortable.

When there is a crash the damage is done. When there is a fire the damage has just started.

If they have a procedure that says fire! immediate flag! then that is good by me.

They shouldn’t go Fire! Let me have a think why I shouldn’t call a FCY.
I am pretty sure they didn’t go Fire! Excellent I can use this as an excuse. Oh wait is everyone OK.
It’s actually quite an accusation you have there!

But if we are going to, with hindsight that race control didn’t have, judge whether they could have not bothered let’s review where the car was and where the closest fire marshals were and how they could get there.

[GT3_Fan]

If we only really had a real code 60 version of FCY right?

But yeah I think it was obviously everyone was ok when the actual driver was the one doing the most work to put the fire out. It was a part of pit lane with a WALL too. Plenty of room for cars leaving the pit lane to go by still. This safety car was 100% unnecessary. I stand by that.

[Adam43]

Even making the assumption that code 60 type cautions are even an option, burning cars are likely to be automatic FCY, right.

Even with hindsight you haven’t checked out all the potential dangers, how you get to put the fire out, or how it might escalate. You have the luxury to review all these things. Race control has to react quickly. They will, and should, have an abundance of caution.

If there is a review to be had here it is how the fire was dealt with. It looked quite amateurish. “Here mate, have an extinguisher, I’ll pass it to you over the WALL. The safety pin is somewhere on it, you’ll find it.”

You would potentially let it burn and it’s OK as even those coming out the pits can still get by! This is ridiculous suggestion! And I stand by that.

I would have done exactly the same as race control and I don’t know of a race series that would do different.

Not trying to change your mind. You’ve doubled down on this. But I wouldn’t race in a series you ran. I also wouldn’t want to insure it either!

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Adam43

If they are going to throw a flag for a car on fire I am not going to complain.

If anything I am constantly surprised that they don’t use the FCY more. Sometimes we have stricken cars for much longer than I find comfortable.

When there is a crash the damage is done. When there is a fire the damage has just started.

If they have a procedure that says fire! immediate flag! then that is good by me.

They shouldn’t go Fire! Let me have a think why I shouldn’t call a FCY.
I am pretty sure they didn’t go Fire! Excellent I can use this as an excuse. Oh wait is everyone OK.
It’s actually quite an accusation you have there!

But if we are going to, with hindsight that race control didn’t have, judge whether they could have not bothered let’s review where the car was and where the closest fire marshals were and how they could get there.

No fire/rescue crew on the inside of T1-2, trucks have to come from either T6 or from the infield across from T2-T2A. In both instances, the truck would have to go straight across the track and enter pitlane basically at T2. The only marshals on that side of the track (drivers left) are the F&C (flagging & communication) volunteers like me. We are prohibited from going onto the hot track so handing a bottle to the driver or pulling the pin from behind the barriers is the max. we can do. Then it's waiting for the 'pro' guys to show up. The latter will not go on track without a caution. Simple as that. Without a caution, the car would have burned to the ground and blocked pit exit.

[Adam43]

Interesting stuff. Thank you.

[Nick Woodbury]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

Was a safety car in the pit lane I might add for the Lexus fire really needed? After we had hours of green flag racing. I was so angry at that. That was a far worse issue than throwing the checkered flag a minute early.

Perhaps they threw the caution out for "the show"? it was not needed #31 and #7 were already close.

I attended the R24 this year and was literally right across the end of the nascar pitlane in the main grandstands when this all happened. The Lexus was rolling down pitlane for a while with white smoke billowing out the engine bay, so I can only assume the fire started while it exited it's pit box after it's service.

Here's where the whole ordeal stops making sense to me; The IMSA official that is stationed at the end of the pit lane, ushered the car into the penalty box area. I was looking through my binoculars and could see the official speaking to the driver briefly through the window AS WELL AS a porky Daytona fire marshal getting his kit in order and getting ready to spray the car with a fire bottle from the other side of the pitwall.

For no apparent reason, the IMSA official waved back onto the circuit after a few moments and the Lexus proceeded onto the exit lane. This is when the fire properly festered. I followed the car with my binocs and could see the flames licking out from underneath the left front wheel arch and I knew the car was fubar and we'd get a safety car.

I cannot understand why the official released a car that was clearly on fire while there were trained fire marshals feet away ready to fight it. It's worth noting that there were no team pitboxes within 2-3 car lengths of the lexus, so there wasa no threat of a more severe fuel/equipment fire. The only boxes near the car were the Michelin support box and the NBC pitbox.

[broadrun96]

Well you can't have the NBC guys getting too warm from the fire man

[GT3_Fan]

This was my breakdown of the safety cars at Daytona

1. hour 1 gt3 crash
2. hour 2 lmp2 crash
3. hour 2 lmp2 crash
4. hour 4 lmp2 stalled car (#33 Ligier) *
5. hour 5 lmp2 stalled car (#33 Ligier) *
6. hour 6 debris *
7. hour 7 lmp2 stalled car (#33 Ligier)*
8. hour 9 gtp stalled car (#10 Acura) *
9. hour 12 debris (not even on the racing line) *
10. hour 12 gtp stalled car (#40 Acura) *
11. hour 13 gtp stalled car (#24 bmw) *
12. hour 14 gtp stalled car (#01 caddy) *
13. hour 16 lmp2 stalled car (#99 oreca) *
14. hour 19 debris (#33 Ligier) *
15. hour 24 gtd stalled car (#12 lexus) *

Noticed how the #33 car alone caused of them. Also note only the first two were for actual crashes. Rest were stalled car and debris. ALL of those could have been quick code 60's that would take 3-5 minutes to clear out. No bunching of the field. No wave arounds, No pit stop procedures needed. Just green flag racing.

[Adam43]

The timing of the yellows are t quite right:

http://results.imsa.com/Results/24_2...lysis_Race.PDF

There were two in hour 1. One in hour 2.

You’re funny. The 15th yellow was
15. hour 24 gtd fire (#12 lexus)

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

This was my breakdown of the safety cars at Daytona

1. hour 1 gt3 crash
2. hour 2 lmp2 crash
3. hour 2 lmp2 crash
4. hour 4 lmp2 stalled car (#33 Ligier) *
5. hour 5 lmp2 stalled car (#33 Ligier) *
6. hour 6 debris *
7. hour 7 lmp2 stalled car (#33 Ligier)*
8. hour 9 gtp stalled car (#10 Acura) *
9. hour 12 debris (not even on the racing line) *
10. hour 12 gtp stalled car (#40 Acura) *
11. hour 13 gtp stalled car (#24 bmw) *
12. hour 14 gtp stalled car (#01 caddy) *
13. hour 16 lmp2 stalled car (#99 oreca) *
14. hour 19 debris (#33 Ligier) *
15. hour 24 gtd stalled car (#12 lexus) *

Noticed how the #33 car alone caused of them. Also note only the first two were for actual crashes. Rest were stalled car and debris. ALL of those could have been quick code 60's that would take 3-5 minutes to clear out. No bunching of the field. No wave arounds, No pit stop procedures needed. Just green flag racing.

YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE RULES AND LAW OF THE LAND, Code 60 ain't happening with the current legal atmosphere and business registration. I have asked that question of those WHO MAKE SUCH DECISIONS cause I have the time and go to the track at off times when you can meet people. It ain't gonna happen and was told by an AMR guy, those who think it could have the brain of a mouse, a dead mouse. He wasn't open to hearing any of it and was a Holmatro safety guy previously, works Indy and IMSA events, comes to TransAm to watch since he doesn't get to watch much. Does have a sweet branded truck for Holmatro

[seanyb505]

This is what put it into reference for me - Also to decision makers, I pitched the idea of track Safaris, like what wec does in suzuka. Big ol' tour bus, throw a few race cars on track to pass the buss and make noise even at walking pace. Super interesting idea (I think it was at least contemplated over night), insurance would not allow it. Non race cars on the track with race cars has a ton of red tape that even for the purposes of medical staff and corner marshals, can ONLY be mitigated by a safety car. Not the actual danger, the actual insurance policy for 190mph competition.

Insert Dean Winters:
"Hey, it's me. Horrible things on a racetrack. Today I'm going to convince Montoya to hit a jet dryer. Hope you like safety cars. You're welcome."

[Coach Ep]

The fact that a safety car crashed into the tire walls @ the busstop during the vintage exhibition session (!) on Sat. morning before the Rolex, means things will get only more restricted than less. It's just the way society works these days. I don't like it either, but that's reality for you.

[broadrun96]

SC driver or another of the let's put someone from GM in the car and that's never been an issue before right Mark?

https://youtu.be/fyKODVVdpDY?si=lqapBVa45_JuXFdI

[GT3_Fan]

Can you really say that Daytona, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans are "endurance" races anymore? The better term is to call them "extended" races. But they are not really endurance races in the classic sense. Remember how the Daytona 24 went from 2004 and before? Yeah I admit it. I miss that.

Sebring 2024 is THE example of the definition of the modern day extended IMSA race, but not really being an endurance race. But good examples of modern day endurance races would be WEC Qatar and the Nürburgring 24. The best actual endurance race we will have in the USA this year I bet will be WEC COTA.

[Coach Ep]

Trying to survive two handful or so crazy restarts is true endurance imo.

[deggis]

When was the wave-by procedure introduced?

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

Can you really say that Daytona, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans are "endurance" races anymore? The better term is to call them "extended" races. But they are not really endurance races in the classic sense. Remember how the Daytona 24 went from 2004 and before? Yeah I admit it. I miss that.

Sebring 2024 is THE example of the definition of the modern day extended IMSA race, but not really being an endurance race. But good examples of modern day endurance races would be WEC Qatar and the Nürburgring 24. The best actual endurance race we will have in the USA this year I bet will be WEC COTA.

Go tell Derani it's not an endurance race. In fact go into the paddock at any imsa race and tell someone the enduros aren't endurance races. The tone of this post can only come from a place of ignorance of the true work and effort that goes into any race weekend. Tell a marshal. Tell the tire changers.

We get it, you dislike the caution protocol of imsa. It's been spelled out to you on multiple occasions why it's that way.

Calling it not an endurance is incredibly disrespectful to the thousands of individuals who work tirelessly months before the race just so they can even have a chance of surviving to the finish, much less surviving in the lead. A caution in the middle of a stint doesn't give you all your energy back from the previous stint.

You may not like the form of entertainment you've chosen to entertain yourself with. Unless you've got first hand experience participating in a race that long and at that skill level, calling out those who do as not completing your definition of an endurance race is a bit unfair.

[Akrapovic]

I understand the argument that the result is artificially closer than it would otherwise be. But that doesn't make it not an endurance race lol. They still need to cover the time and distance.

[JT240Z]

Calling Sebring a "non-endurance race" is just ludicrous. 12 hours on that track has historically been equated to a 24-hour race at any venue. The track is known as a torture course by all that have participated. Your comments again show just how ignorant you are of reality. Or maybe you're just posting these things to get a rise. Here fishy, fishy, fishy.

[GT3_Fan]

Originally Posted by JT240Z

Calling Sebring a "non-endurance race" is just ludicrous. 12 hours on that track has historically been equated to a 24-hour race at any venue. The track is known as a torture course by all that have participated. Your comments again show just how ignorant you are of reality. Or maybe you're just posting these things to get a rise. Here fishy, fishy, fishy.

Prior to the decade of the 2020s. I would agree with you. Not anymore. By the way this topic of safety cars does come up in a big way in the GT Rain/Off the Esses Post Sebring video. Seems like their views are just like what I have!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ss813kb0Os&t=330s

[Adam43]

Let’s start with the ideal. We don’t have cautions and the race pans out with no influence from them. That would be great.

What about safety?

And back in the day we had something closer to the “ideal”, but how? Broken cars would be left by the side of tracks. Marshals would clear up on a hot track with, at best, maybe a local yellow. etc…

I really don’t want that. And here is our first choice. What approach do we take to safety?

Of all the options we’ve gone relatively conservative here. Note I don’t say too conservative, just of the all the choices from full risk to no risk we are on the conservative side. I certainly would not disagree with that approach to safety. The compromise here does not involve VSC (or similar) for IMSA. There will be knock ons to insurance and viability of the future of the series.

Then we have fairness.

How do we treat the pit stops and the wave rounds?

To try and minimise the impact of luckily stopping at the right time, or the chaos of diving in to the pits (another safety consideration), the pits are closed and then opened for each kind of car. I can’t think of a better way. It will still favor some over others, but this reduces the impact and likelihood of that.

Then there is the wave-round. You have a choice to let the procedure, like at Le Mans, cause a big gap in positions, suddenly making it a full lap difference (or 1/3 lap at Le Mans) depending where the leaders are and the timing of the caution. Or you wave round and people can gain chunks of time.

Which is fairer? Here the choice is to minimise the chance of losing out rather than minimising the chance of gain? Would it be fairer the other way round, well that is just a point of view.

I wouldn’t have wave rounds, but when I think about it my reasoning is no better than the opposite. I’d like to try and maintain gaps people had built up, but it isn’t great at that. It would at least leave cars between you and the leader and mean you still have to overtake. As everyone will probably stop this mixes this up anyway and my argument isn’t as good. It would remove some time faffing around behind the car and mean we get back to green quicker, which would be nice. But thinking about the whole of getting everyone bunched up, pits closed and opening, it isn’t that important.

I have my views on which is fairer, but it isn’t simple. Neither approach is by any means perfect.

What about the show?

Is it for the show that this is chosen? I don’t know. There are reasons to have this situation anyway. A few years ago I would say that there was more influence of the show (I’d love to see some stats on number and length of caution periods over the years). I feel that has eased in the current mini-era in which we are in.

I’m not going to claim that they is none of this, but the driving forces behind why IMSA has the approach above is, in my view, clearly more of the other reasons above. I was say their priorities are safety, fairness, and then show.

Conclusion
IMSA have chosen a level of safety. Inherently this introduces a compromise with how the race is run and the impact on the sporting fairness. To solve this you can go one of two ways, a solution that is more likely to unfairly penalise a competitor, or one that is unfairly benefit a competitor. They’ve gone with later. And finally, we know this effects the “show”, but that impact is less than it was.

And one final point. You don’t often get a winner that doesn’t deserve it. Or, at least, not for the reasons above. We already have a lot of randomness in Motorsport; weather, punctures, illness, caught up in someone else’s accident, etc… You adapt and play the cards that are dealt.

[Akrapovic]

Can I be honest? There's a half way point here.

I don't think IMSA is not endurance racing. Or its fake. Or any of that. I do think they do an excellent job.

BUT. I do think a full SC procedure for 25 minutes for a Mustang deck lid is a bit much. I am 100% for SC for dealing with accidents and stuff. But maybe a FCY should be looked at for debris. I find the insurance argument a bit odd given WEC can rock up to Sebring/COTA and do it. But IMSA can't. This feels like a get-out-clause argument when IMSA just prefers SCs. AND THATS FINE. SCs are fine. I'm onboard with those. Just...not for debris.

[GT3_Fan]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Can I be honest? There's a half way point here.

I don't think IMSA is not endurance racing. Or its fake. Or any of that. I do think they do an excellent job.

BUT. I do think a full SC procedure for 25 minutes for a Mustang deck lid is a bit much. I am 100% for SC for dealing with accidents and stuff. But maybe a FCY should be looked at for debris. I find the insurance argument a bit odd given WEC can rock up to Sebring/COTA and do it. But IMSA can't. This feels like a get-out-clause argument when IMSA just prefers SCs. AND THATS FINE. SCs are fine. I'm onboard with those. Just...not for debris.

Stalled cars too.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

Stalled cars too.

Like the Corvette at the end of Sebring? Or are you referring to the lexus that stalled in the Daytona pitlane because cars on fire don't run so good?

Wec (and for that matter, F1) insure themselves separately from imsa. They likely pay more than imsa too. I won't pretend to know those specifics, but I do know there are operational factors in play beyond imsa liking yellows when the choice is made to throw a yellow.