Miller on merger attempt

[JohnSSC]

I like that: "Anyone who doesn't have a clue, read this great post!" There is an irony there for those that can see it is a wonder to behold...

Why? Because what we really need here is a rehash of how CIRCL got here in the first place. Of course, TG just woke up one morning and decided "today would be a swell day to start an ovla-only series!" and then busied himself with the task.

Sure.

And the same Carl Haas who is ready to jump ship isn't the same Carl Haas who told TG that he was taking his toys (his fellow CART owners) and throwing them out of the Indy 500 pram. I paraphrase here but the quote was something like: "Without us you can't have an Indy 500."

Anyway, then as now, the teams will do what is best for them financially. I do not think IC or myself or anyone else will tell you that the IRL part of CIRCL is in abundantly good shape either. IRL is at least in the step-down unit instead of ICU on life-support.

Further, I don't think that any of the CC team owners outside the gringos wake up in the morning and say: "I am opposed to the IRL, TG and all they stand for!" I think that basically they just want to race and make a few bucks whiole they are at it.

So having said that, what do you think that guys like Vasser and Walker and Dale Coyne and Paul Stoddart, etc are thinking right now? This deal is offered and they are not told about it (after all, they are not owners of CC but where would CC be without 'em?) and the "sticking point" is apparently the gringos wanting TG to compensate them for the bad investment they made ($100 million payment request).

I am thinking that folks like that are looking in their rolodex for TG's phone number to see if they can cut their own deal.

[Fogelhund]

How we got here really is quite irrelevant at this point. What is relevant, is what happens going forward.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

So having said that, what do you think that guys like Vasser and Walker and Dale Coyne and Paul Stoddart, etc are thinking right now? This deal is offered and they are not told about it (after all, they are not owners of CC but where would CC be without 'em?) and the "sticking point" is apparently the gringos wanting TG to compensate them for the bad investment they made ($100 million payment request).

I am thinking that folks like that are looking in their rolodex for TG's phone number to see if they can cut their own deal.

Actually we don't know if this deal was ever discussed, whether the $100 mil figure was true, etc. It's all conjecture at the moment based on an unnamed source in a robin miller story.

[BootsOntheSide]

True mountainstar, we don't really know where we are. The fact that we've had so much discussion (most of it civil and neutral) of it in 2 days shows the depth of feeling among fans of both championships. Alone, neither can survive; together, can they stop NASCAR?

[indycool]

It is not a matter of "stopping NASCAR." There is no trophy for someone beating their breast and saying, "We're No. 1" in auto racing. The landscape is based a LOT on television and there are many things to compete against besides NASCAR on television. Long Beach used to get junk TV ratings PARTLY because it was against the Masters golf tournament. Even NASCAR's ratings go down when football season starts.

"Stopping NASCAR" ain't the point, IMO.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

True mountainstar, we don't really know where we are. The fact that we've had so much discussion (most of it civil and neutral) of it in 2 days shows the depth of feeling among fans of both championships. Alone, neither can survive; together, can they stop NASCAR?

I guess if one looks at the auto racing pie in that it is a finite one with x amount of fans and x amount of dollars. And for open wheel to succeed, it has to take back part of that pie from other racing series. I'm not so sure that is the case. I think there is a lot of room out there in the market for open wheel to expand and gain new fans and sponsors without it's success being totally dependent on current racing fans or what NASCAR does or doesn't do. The previous success of CART tells me it is possible.

However if and when a merger happens it has to be done right and a part of that is unhooking itself from current management of both series, both of whom have failed. If the merger offer reported by miller was true, all that deal offered was the addition of a few races and a few new teams to the irl schedule. It wouldn't replace the inept leadership of the irl. Of which is responsible for poor tv ratings <1.0, the loss of Pikes Peak Raceway and Nazereth Speedway both headed for demolition, being kicked out of New Hampshire, Phoenix, Atlanta, Charlotte, Fontana, Michigan, etc., the 100+ drivers hospitalized, some with disfiguring injuries that will last a lifetime, a crippling lack of attendence and bare aluminum at tracks everywhere including indy, drivers bailing out as quickly as possible to race Nascar, etc.

For a merger to succeed, it has to be done right from the get go, with solid, intelligent management. People are not tuning in now to the irl, so I doubt the general public would suddenly tune in with the addition of a few races and teams. It has to be something bigger and better and would need to be relaunched. It would need a new start.

[indycool]

Great spin, ms.....inaccurate, but great spin.

[f1manoz]

Originally Posted by indycool

Great spin, ms.....inaccurate, but great spin.

You have made no argument against his points. So why is what he has posted you class as spin eh?????

And why is it inaccurate. Because it goes against your biased, pro-IRL viewpoints????

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

Great spin, ms.....inaccurate, but great spin.

Pot kettle black? - You have a great cheek

[indycool]

Okay, here are the inaccuracies:

--IRL management is responsible for TV ratings. IRL management is responsible for putting on races and generally, the ratings have been low, but growing slowly, like attendance. Does ABC/ESPN production and management have something to do with it? Does scheduling have something to do with it? The IRL management is not the ONLY factor involved. Whether Sadie in Omaha has a Nielsen box and does or doesn't watch has something to do with it, too.
--Pikes Peak was bought by ISC and closed down. Nazareth was bought by ISC and closed down. The IRL ran races at both places until they closed down. The IRL didn't own the tracks.
--Being kicked out of New Hampshire? (mutual). Being kicked out of Phoenix? (scheduling problem with its second Cup race). Atlanta? (mutual...it didn't work for USAC in the '60s or CART in the '80s, either). Charlotte? (yes, after the tragic accident there, Humpy Wheeler said he wouldn't run them any more there). Fontana (see Phoenix). Michigan (scheduling problem). So, of all mentioned, one (Charlotte) could be exagerrated to "kicked out."
--100-plus drivers hospitalized? That just hasn't happened.
--A "crippling lack of attendance?" If true, why don't we hear promoters complain? They must be making money because some people must be showing up and buying tickets and corporate support is also there.
--"Bare aluminum at Indy." Sure, there's some in Turn 3 but there are 270,000 seats at Indy, not just a section of Turn 3 and the rest of them have bodies in them. Call it 250,000 and say bad attendance? Uh uh.
--"Drivers bailing as fast as possible to NASCAR?" You can look at how many years Franchitti and Hornish spent in the IRL before those TWO (2) drivers went to NASCAR.

[Leighton Irwin]

IC: I do not know of any major construction planned for Toronto at the CNE. Even if there is the grounds are such that a construction area could be by passed.
Years ago I was involved with the possibity of races there (opposition was huge then) and we had 4 different configurations under consideration.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by indycool

the ratings have been low, but growing slowly

Really, season finally last year scored a .8 or .9. If thats growth ........

Originally Posted by indycool

Being kicked out of Phoenix? (scheduling problem with its second Cup race).

Strange, I remember media reporting it was the less than 5000 people who attended. Maybe it was a scheduling problem in that Pheonix refused to schedule another ?


Anyways moving on. First things first I agree that a deal needs to be struck between the IRL and CC.

What I do find a little odd though, is Mr Georges generous offer of FREE cars and engines to any CC team. Early last year when KK proposed bringing CC teams to the Indy 500 with George providing free engines for the event it was shot down from all quarters. All this being a start to a better relationship and future for open wheel.

"How can George look IRL teams in the face while handing out freebies to other teams" many, said even in this forum. But now, an offer is thrown out there and strangely these issues have gone silent.

To me the offer sounds a good first offer, not a final offer but a good first one. Hopefully with a bit more negotiation we can have a unified series for 2009.

[JohnSSC]

Handing out "freebies" for one race is a bit different than making a definitive move to consolidate into one series. IRL teams are already benefiting from the new distribution arrangement. Further, there would be a spinoff, imho in sponsor interest as it would finally be one series. We also don't know what TG may be willing to do "in kind" for existing IRL teams were CC to take the offer.

It might also be pointed out that it was the gringos who went to TG and asked for the deal - not an offer by TG to the gringos - it might be said that the gringos had their hat in their hands, actually.

I agree that a unified series for CIRCL can't happen soon enough.

Oh yeah, speaking of canceled races, how about the ones that were canceled during the season for CC?

Face it kids: neither series is setting the world on fire...

[mountainstar]

Indycool: Okay, here are the inaccuracies:

"--IRL management is responsible for TV ratings. IRL management is responsible for putting on races and generally, the ratings have been low, but growing slowly, like attendance. Does ABC/ESPN production and management have something to do with it? Does scheduling have something to do with it? The IRL management is not the ONLY factor involved. Whether Sadie in Omaha has a Nielsen box and does or doesn't watch has something to do with it, too."

Oh, so using your standards, champcar doesn't bear 100% responsibility for their tv ratings either. Applying your standards, I guess you wont be so critical of champcars tv ratings anymore. Thanks!

IRL ratings are down. Look it up.

"--Pikes Peak was bought by ISC and closed down. Nazareth was bought by ISC and closed down. The IRL ran races at both places until they closed down. The IRL didn't own the tracks."

The irl didn't own the tracks, but the continuing poor attendance of irl races caused them to be closed as they were no longer viable to operate. During the CART years, Nazereth always drew strong crowds. The hilarity was when the irl celebrated it's 100th race or something, it was the last race ever at Nazereth! Hardly much to celebrate when you have a race series shuttering tracks because of poor attendance.

"--Being kicked out of New Hampshire? (mutual). Being kicked out of Phoenix? (scheduling problem with its second Cup race). Atlanta? (mutual...it didn't work for USAC in the '60s or CART in the '80s, either). Charlotte? (yes, after the tragic accident there, Humpy Wheeler said he wouldn't run them any more there). Fontana (see Phoenix). Michigan (scheduling problem). So, of all mentioned, one (Charlotte) could be exagerrated to "kicked out.""

When the irl was formed, Buddy Jobe of Phoenix and Bob Bahre of New Hampshire supported the series, yet within a few years both gave the irl the boot because of poor attendance. 2 Tracks that again drew strong crowds during the CART years. Fontana kicked them out for the same. Michigan the same. Poor attendance, poor attendance. NOW Homestead and Watkins Glen are facing the cut!

"--100-plus drivers hospitalized? That just hasn't happened."
Excuse me, drivers requiring hospital care.

1996
Series Driver Venue Type Injury

1. Butch Brickell Disney Oval Broken Neck
2. Eliseo Salazar Disney Oval Broken Leg
3. Roberto Guerrero Disney Oval Concussion
4. Eddie Cheever Phoenix Oval Concussion
5. Stan Wattles Phoenix Oval Concussion
6. Buddy Lazier Phoenix Oval Broken back
7. Scott Brayton Indy Oval FATALITY
8. Billy Boat Indy Oval Shoulder Separation
9. Dan Drinan Indy Oval Broken Pelvis
10. Lyn St. James Indy Oval Broken Wrist
11. A. Zampedri Indy Oval Broken Feet/Ankles
12. Brad Murphey Las Vegas Oval Broken Hip
13. Tony Stewart Las Vegas Oval Broken Shoulder
14. Mark Dismore Las Vegas Oval Broken Pelvis
1997:
1. Eliseo Salazar Disney Oval Broken Back (Thoracic compression fracture)
2. Davy Jones Disney Oval Head/Neck/Neuro
3. Kenny Brack Phoenix Oval Concussion
4. Sam Schmidt Phoenix Oval Spinal Fracture (Thoracic compression fracture)
5. Jeret Schroeder Phoenix Oval Concussion
6. Scott Sharp Indy Oval Head/Cerebral Hemorrhage
7. John Paul, Jr. Indy Oval Broken Leg
8. Johnny O'Connell Indy Oval Broken Foot
9. Robby Gordon Indy Oval 2nd/3rd Degree Burns
10. Paul Durant Indy Oval Broken Pelvis/Concussion
11. Mike Groff Texas Oval Broken Leg
12. Robbie Buhl Colorado Oval Concussion
13. Jim Guthrie Colorado Oval Broken Back (Thoracic compression fracture?)
14. Scott Sharp Colorado Oval Cerebral Hemorrhage
15. Buzz Caulkins Loudon Oval Fractured Skull/Broken Ankle
16. Mike Groff Loudon Oval Concussion
17. Davey Hamilton Las Vegas Oval Concussion
18. John Paul, Jr. Las Vegas Oval Concussion
19. Jimmy Kite Las Vegas Oval Concussion
1998:
1. Mike Groff Phoenix Oval Concussion
2. Danny Ongais Indy Oval Concussion
3. Jim Guthrie Indy Oval Broken Elbow
4. Mark Dismore Texas Oval Concussion
5. Billy Boat Loudon Oval Broken Leg & Pelvis
6. Eliseo Salazar Dover Oval Broken Leg/Hip/Arm/Pelvis (I.e. entire right side)
1999 Series Driver Venue Type Injury
1. Stan Wattles Atlanta Oval Broken back
2. 3 Spectators Charlotte Oval 3 Fatalities
3. (3 Crewman) Texas Oval 3 Hospitalized multitude of injuries
4. Sam Schmidt Texas Oval Severe Foot Injury
5. Robby Unser Texas Oval Back Injury/Hospitalized
2000
Series Driver Venue Type Injury

1. Sam Schmidt Disney Oval Paralyzed/Broken Neck
2. Davey Hamilton Disney Oval Hospitalized/Back Injury
3. Jacques Lazier Disney Oval Broken Back (Thoracic compression fracture)
4. Tyce Carlson Indy Oval Concussion
5. Hideshi Matsuda Indy Oval Broken Wrist/Knee/Concussion
6. Al Unser, Jr. Kentucky Oval Bruised leg
2001
Series Driver Venue Type Injury
1. Greg Ray Homestead Oval Concussion
2. Nicholas Minassian Indy (Test) Oval Soft Tissue
3. Casey Mears Indy Oval Concussion (Mild)
4. Jack Miller Atlanta Oval Concussion
5. Scott Goodyear Indy Oval Fractured Vertebrae (Thoracic compression fracture)
6. Davy Hamilton Texas Oval Severe fractures of both feet/Leg
7. Robby McGehee Texas Oval Broken Leg/Concussion
8. Shigeaki Hattori Colorado Oval Concussion
9. Greg Ray Richmond Oval Soft Tissue
10. Sam Hornish Indy Oval Concussion
2002
Series Driver Venue Type Injury

1. Donnie Beechler Homestead Oval Concussion
2. Anthony Lazzaro Phoenix Oval Fractured Vertebrae (Thoracic compression fracture)
3. Robbie Buhl California Oval Concussion
4. Eliseo Salazar Indy Oval Torn Artery/Broken back (Thoracic compr. fracture)
5. Jacques Lazier Nazareth Oval Broken Back (2nd Thoracic compression fracture)
6. Thomas Scheckter Nazareth Oval Lung Contusion/Concussion
7. Robby McGehee Indy Oval Fractured Leg
8. P.J. Jones Indy Oval Fractured Neck
9. Mark Dismore Indy Oval Concussion
10. Paul Tracy Indy Oval Soft Tissue - Knee
11. Laurent Redon Indy Oval Concussion
12. Laurent Redon Richmond Oval Fractured Fingertips (Two on left hand)
-- IRL Matt Halliday (IPS) Kansas Oval Concussion/Wrist fracture
-- IRL Jason Priestly (IPS) Kentucky Oval Head/neck Injuries
-- IRL Bernie Hallisky (Crew) Kentucky Oval Broken Hip/Pelvis
13. Richie Hearn Kentucky Oval Broken Ankle
14. Gil de Ferran Chicagoland Oval Concussion, Broken wrist
2003
Series Driver Venue Type Injury

1. Gil de Ferran Phoenix Oval Concussion & Fractured Vertebrae
2. Roger Yasukawa Phoenix Oval Back Pain, kept overnight
3. Tony Kanaan Motegi Oval Broken wrist/arm
4. Scott Dixon Motegi Oval Broken wrist/hand
5. Craig Dollansky Indy Oval Broken lower back
6 Arie Luyendyk Indy Oval Unspecified injuries to upper back
7. Airton Daire Texas Oval Broken hip, pelvis, leg and arm
8. Felipe Giaffone Kansas Oval Broken pelvis & right thigh
9. Vitor Meira Kentucky Oval Broken wrist
10. Tom Wood (IPS) Kentucky Oval Broken middle back, right knee, right foot & both ankles
11 Sarah Fisher Nazareth Oval Airlifted, Contusion of the back
12 Kenny Brack Texas Oval Broken back, femur, ankles, sternum
13 Tony Renna Indy Testing Oval FATALITY 10/22/03
2004
Series Driver Venue Type Injury

1. Scott Dixon Milwaukee Oval Chipped bone in thumb, sprained ankle
2. Dario Franchitti Texas Oval Broken foot
2005
Series Driver Venue Type Injury

1. Danica Patrick Homestead Oval Concussion
2. Tomas Enge Motegi Oval Broken ribs
3. Paul Dana Indianapolis Oval Compression fractures of 2 vertebra
4. Buddy Rice Indianapolis Oval Concussion, severe back contusions, partially torn spinal ligament
5. Bruno Junqueira Indianapolis Oval Concussion, Broken back, broken ankle
6. Larry Foyt Indianapolis Oval Chipped vertebra
7. Tomas Enge Nashville Oval Fractures to his T-12 and L-1 vertebra
8. Ryan Briscoe Chicagoland Oval Fractures to both clavicles, bad concussion, bruised lung, broken foot, damage to his T1 and T2 vertebra, trouble breathing

That's just up to 2005 and doesn't include the past 2 seasons.
From 2003: http://espn.go.com/rpm/irl/2003/1013/1637489.html

"--"Bare aluminum at Indy." Sure, there's some in Turn 3 but there are 270,000 seats at Indy, not just a section of Turn 3 and the rest of them have bodies in them. Call it 250,000 and say bad attendance? Uh uh."

Ah, the event that once was like the super bowl, where tickets were tough to get and people decamped on indy for the month of may. Now you buy tickets for indy in blocks of 100. Pole Day is deserted. Sure it is a big one day event but it aint what it used to be. Ask any long time business owner dependent on tourist income in indy.

"--"Drivers bailing as fast as possible to NASCAR?" You can look at how many years Franchitti and Hornish spent in the IRL before those TWO (2) drivers went to NASCAR."

With Francheeki being indy winner and champion and Hornish at Penske, these two were not being shown the door. Two of the biggest "stars" bailing out. Wheldon wants out too and expressed disappointment recently in an article that Ganassi wouldn't let him go this year. Castro neves and Dixon have also expressed an interest. If those guys go next year, the only thing left is a bunch of ride buyers and unknowns.

All you have done is blame the irls problems on everybody else. Own up to the fact that Tony George started this whole ride and MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE has to make amends to move forward. Everyone wants to look the future and not the past, sure, I agree. But one must know the past and accept responsibilty for wrongs so those same wrongs are not committed again in the future. For a merger to proceed with the same modus operandi and the same people in charge who have failed, we do not move forward.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

It might also be pointed out that it was the gringos who went to TG and asked for the deal - not an offer by TG to the gringos - it might be said that the gringos had their hat in their hands, actually.

I agree that a unified series for CIRCL can't happen soon enough.

Oh yeah, speaking of canceled races, how about the ones that were canceled during the season for CC?

Face it kids: neither series is setting the world on fire...

Nobody right now knows any confirmed details or who shot first.

As of right now you are wrong:
"SPEEDtv.com has learned that’s what Tony George proposed to Champ Car’s ownership group several weeks ago during meetings here in Indianapolis.

According to a well-placed source inside the open-wheel community, George presented his plan to Gerald Forsythe, the primary co-owner of Champ Car with Kevin Kalkhoven, along with minority owners, Dan Pettit and Paul Gentilozzi."

No neither series is setting the world on fire. It needs some new ideas, some new energy and a new series uniting the best of both.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Handing out "freebies" for one race is a bit different than making a definitive move to consolidate into one series.

It was the first step to consolidating a future with one series. All the arguments against it were, if you want to race here, you pay. Now there is a backflip.

If George had agreed to the deal last season, you never know where we could be now.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

IRL teams are already benefiting from the new distribution arrangement. Further, there would be a spinoff, imho in sponsor interest as it would finally be one series.

Would this not have been a the case starting at Indy last year, a combined field?

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

It might also be pointed out that it was the gringos who went to TG and asked for the deal - not an offer by TG to the gringos - it might be said that the gringos had their hat in their hands, actually.

It was a move to the future, I dont think it matters who threw it out there.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

yeah, speaking of canceled races, how about the ones that were canceled during the season for CC?

Theres the my series is less poor argument again

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Face it kids: neither series is setting the world on fire...

Face what, who is saying anything different?

[indycool]

--To the extent that CC buys the time slots for its races and has jumped from network to networks to networks trying for ratings, plus the irregularity of its international TV where sometimes countries like all of 'em in Europe, Mexico, Australia and even Canada don't have them from time to time, it IS responsible.
--Both Nazareth and Pikes Peak had other races besides the IRL. Poor IRL attendance didn't break 'em. Pikes Peak was poorly financed and was for sale almost before it was completed. Nazareth was overbudgeted and when Penske built the facility, it hit rocks at a very shallow depth, so growth of permanent grandstands, etc., would be costly. ISC grounded Nazareth to sell the land because of its status. ISC grounded Pikes Peak and cannibalized the seating for some of its other tracks.
--Bob Bahre and the IRL mutually agreed Loudon wasn't a good market for them. They agreed it didn't work. Buddy Jobe was the first to step up for IRL when it was formed and the IRL ran there loyally throughout its ownership. ISC bought the track from Buddy Jobe, IRL attendance stayed constant for awhile and started dropping when the ISC management screwed up both the Copper World Classic and the IRL weekends, started to focus on a second NASCAR race and finally went away. The decision was not met well within the Phoenix racing community and Phoenix has talked to the IRL since about trying it again and trying to figure out a date that's not too close to the NASCAR dates.
--You are incorrect about both Fontana and Michigan on both crowds and reasons.
--I don't know where you got your list of hospitalized drivers but it's mandatory that they check into the track medical facility after a crash and if there's any question, they send 'em in. At a cursory glance, a good portion of those injuries were minimal enough that the drivers went in, got checked out and were released or just looked at overnight to be safe. The ESPN link was back when Oreo and the then-Gang of Four and Mark C. were playing safety cards at random and embellishing them.
--Pole Day no longer has milestones to be reached like 150, 200, etc. However, the move of Carb Day from Thursday to Friday with a concert has been a HUGE increase.
--Yes, Wheldon has said he wanted to try NASCAR. As I said, how long did Franchitti and Hornish drive Indy cars and Hornish has expressed a desire to continue running at Indy. From the interviews of both Dario and Ashley and Dario's two '07 flips, I gather he's down there to try to finish his career there. It isn't like Indy-car drivers haven't tried it down there in the past -- notably, Tom Sneva, Johnny Rutherford and Pancho Carter all spent a season or so down there. Similarly, Cale Yarborough, Donnie and Bobby Allison and Lee Roy Yarbrough spent seasons or selected races in Indy cars. I have seen absolutely nothing anywhere to indicate Castroneves and/or Dixon have said or done anything anywhere close to serious consideration of a NASCAR career. This is the absolute first I have heard that anywhere.
--You want to call IRL management a failure. That's your privilege, your attitude and your expectations that form that opinion and I suggest you just keep on truckin' with your pals at CW....they've been down a little lately and The Dark Side needs some perkin' up.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

It was the first step to consolidating a future with one series. All the arguments against it were, if you want to race here, you pay. Now there is a backflip.

If George had agreed to the deal last season, you never know where we could be now.

You know it's quite funny those here at ten-tenths that hailed the recent supposed offer from TG as the greatest since sliced bread, trashed Kalkoven last year when he offered to field 10 cars at indy if tony george could ensure engine supply for the cars. Interesting.

[mountainstar]

--To the extent that CC buys the time slots for its races and has jumped from network to networks to networks trying for ratings, plus the irregularity of its international TV where sometimes countries like all of 'em in Europe, Mexico, Australia and even Canada don't have them from time to time, it IS responsible.
No, no, no, I'm gonna blame it on ABC production and that old grandma in Omaha. It's all their fault. Champcar just puts on the races.

--Both Nazareth and Pikes Peak had other races besides the IRL. Poor IRL attendance didn't break 'em. Pikes Peak was poorly financed and was for sale almost before it was completed. Nazareth was overbudgeted and when Penske built the facility, it hit rocks at a very shallow depth, so growth of permanent grandstands, etc., would be costly. ISC grounded Nazareth to sell the land because of its status. ISC grounded Pikes Peak and cannibalized the seating for some of its other tracks.

Rationalization that leads to nothing. Nazereth was once successful based on it's open wheel race and it is now facing demolition. Pikes Peaks bread and butter was the IRL from the beginning, but the only thing left was a few crumbs.

--Bob Bahre and the IRL mutually agreed Loudon wasn't a good market for them. They agreed it didn't work. Buddy Jobe was the first to step up for IRL when it was formed and the IRL ran there loyally throughout its ownership. ISC bought the track from Buddy Jobe, IRL attendance stayed constant for awhile and started dropping when the ISC management screwed up both the Copper World Classic and the IRL weekends, started to focus on a second NASCAR race and finally went away. The decision was not met well within the Phoenix racing community and Phoenix has talked to the IRL since about trying it again and trying to figure out a date that's not too close to the NASCAR dates.

It's everyone else's fault isn't it? More rationalization and blaming others for the fact that the irl drew flies to each track. If both races were successful like they were in the CART days, they would still be on the schedule. But they were not successful and they are gone.

--You are incorrect about both Fontana and Michigan on both crowds and reasons.

Again if the irl was successful there, they would still be there. Excuses, excuses.

--I don't know where you got your list of hospitalized drivers but it's mandatory that they check into the track medical facility after a crash and if there's any question, they send 'em in. At a cursory glance, a good portion of those injuries were minimal enough that the drivers went in, got checked out and were released or just looked at overnight to be safe. The ESPN link was back when Oreo and the then-Gang of Four and Mark C. were playing safety cards at random and embellishing them.

That "safety card" is pretty serious when people die or get injured on a regular basis. Concussions, broken backs and legs are not minimal injuries you slap a band aid on. Do you know that I know some of the drivers on that list and they are still feeling those injuries all these years later? I think they'd strongly disagree their injuries were "minimal".

--Pole Day no longer has milestones to be reached like 150, 200, etc. However, the move of Carb Day from Thursday to Friday with a concert has been a HUGE increase.

The place is vacant compared to the old days. End of story.

--Yes, Wheldon has said he wanted to try NASCAR. As I said, how long did Franchitti and Hornish drive Indy cars and Hornish has expressed a desire to continue running at Indy. From the interviews of both Dario and Ashley and Dario's two '07 flips, I gather he's down there to try to finish his career there. It isn't like Indy-car drivers haven't tried it down there in the past -- notably, Tom Sneva, Johnny Rutherford and Pancho Carter all spent a season or so down there. Similarly, Cale Yarborough, Donnie and Bobby Allison and Lee Roy Yarbrough spent seasons or selected races in Indy cars. I have seen absolutely nothing anywhere to indicate Castroneves and/or Dixon have said or done anything anywhere close to serious consideration of a NASCAR career. This is the absolute first I have heard that anywhere.

Looking at your field, Francheeki and Hornish were two of the top drivers and better known and I would be concerned that they have fled to Nascar. Castro Neves has been rumored and I've seen a direct quote from Dixon he's interested. It should be concern that drivers see the irl as a stepping stone to nascar as much as potential champcar drivers may see it as a path to F1.

--You want to call IRL management a failure. That's your privilege, your attitude and your expectations that form that opinion and I suggest you just keep on truckin' with your pals at CW....they've been down a little lately and The Dark Side needs some perkin' up.

It is a failure. The facts are there. For a new series why invite those same failures to run it.

Yes I'll keep on truckin' with my pals at CW. Thick as thieves we are. But at least I can say I don't get paid per post or cash a check to express my thoughts.

[enemy-ace]

[rush1]

Indy Racing League founder Tony George has made an offer to try and unite the two rival North American open-wheel series. Well-placed sources say George met with Champ Car co-owners Gerald Forsythe, Kevin Kalkhoven, Paul Gentilozzi and Dan Pettit several weeks ago in Indianapolis.

George was said to have offered to Champ Car teams free Dallara chassis and Honda engines. He has even offered to do a complete makeover on the IRL 2008 calendar to include Toronto, Edmonton, Long Beach, Mexico City and Australia if the two sides agree to a merger this year.

An IRL spokesperson confirmed there has been a continuing dialogue between both sides but more importantly Speedtv as it that the end to the split was near quoted Carl Haas, long-time owner of Champ Car's Newman-Haas-Lanigan team. Haas admitted that he has ongoing conversations with George to switch to the IRL.

http://racing.auto123.com/en/racing/...py?artid=93919

We can only hope its true!

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by rush1

http://racing.auto123.com/en/racing/...py?artid=93919

We can only hope its true!

Just a rehash of the speed tv story. Nothing new.

[Fish_Flake]

Ultimately, George's offer here is significant, because it is the first time in which he has approached Champ Car with anything beyond an unconditional surrender. It's still a lowball offer, and it's probably too late to implement the terms for 2008, but hopefully, it will lead to an increased dialogue throughout the upcoming season and a fair reconciliation before the Indianapolis Motor Speedway's centennial in 2009.

Hopefully, no one's going to mess things up this time. Neither side can afford to go back to the drawing board.

[JohnSSC]

More than a little revisionist history going on here.

The gringos approached TG asking for help to run in the 500 as a means to strengthen their own series. The "plan" was that additional sponsor interest could be secured in their own series if sponsors were brought to the 500 by existing CC teams. The goal had nothing to do with a first step - or any step- to merging. The teams would run Indy to get more sponsor $$ and a share of the purse. Period. They were trying to improve their bottom-line to support their CC activities.

Don't try to write this up as some sort of peace mission. It wasn't. It was a cynical (in my view) attempt to get TG to underwrite ChampCar's marketing program. The last thing TG would want to do, then and now, is to do anything that would extend the life of CC.

As far as injuries go, yep, there sure are a lot of drivers both active and retired who walk with a limp - or are lucky to be walking at all. What I have not seen is any hard statistical data to support the argument. Put that on the table (not the anecdotal crap) and we can discuss it. I remember Tim Richmond saying he got out of open wheel to avoid the walking with a limp part.

[indycool]

mountainstar, I could keep arguing with you back and forth, as you didn't even address your inaccurate statement that the IRL was thrown out of Phoenix on Buddy Jobe's watch or that Champ Car doesn't book and isn't responsible for its own TV or Pole Day at Indy years ago had half as many seats, but it's obvious we should agree to disagree. I'm done with the CW mentality. It's not "discussable."