FIA announces standard engine tender!

[Lotusonpole]

Hi all,
If F1 was purely a driver's champiomnship, then I could understand a spec engine or in fact a complete spec package. Just plug in driver and race.
But it's not.
F1 is so much more than that.
So I am totally against a spec anything really.
I wouldn't mind making it greener in theory. Make new regs that help make F1 more green with alternative fuels and therefore engine design etc by all means, but please not all with the same spec engine.

Cheers
Peter

[Marbot]

Agenda for tomorrows FIA-FOTA meeting.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...a_meeting.aspx

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I would think Ferrari will win the tender to build the engines somehow !

And if you are right does anyone really see Mercedes or BMW put their badge on a Ferrari made engine, or vice versa? I doubt it very much. It might make more sense for someone like Ilmor to make the engine as they do in the Indy Car Series, for Honda.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Lotusonpole

Hi all,
If F1 was purely a driver's champiomnship, then I could understand a spec engine or in fact a complete spec package. Just plug in driver and race.
But it's not.
F1 is so much more than that.

This is a very good point alright... but you have to wonder on the sense of manufacturers pumping hundreds of millions of pounds into developing extremely high revving gasoline engines that last about 600 miles of running... particularly in an economic downturn. Apart from the marketing opportunities... its hard to see where there is engineering congruence with anything else they do.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It might make more sense for someone like Ilmor to make the engine as they do in the Indy Car Series, for Honda.

Don't Mercedes own Ilmor (or at least a very big part of it)?

Spec engines are fine if you've got a grid full of independent teams each building their own chassis - manufacturer teams aren't going to go for a spec engine and would walk away. Leaving Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Williams and Force India battling it out with Ferrari (because let's face it - who else is going to get the contract?)

[duke_toaster]

Yes, Mercedes own Ilmor. The McLaren is basically a McLaren-Ilmor.

Here is the agenda for the meeting with a bit of my inane ramblings on what my ideas and what they could suggest added in.

Costs
1. The need to reduce costs

Important : F1 could lose teams in the winter at the current rate.

2. Budgetary targets

Must be cheaper.

Power train
1. Plans for 2013

Will the credit crunch be over by then? If yes, what about a set of rules that encourages fuel efficiency? If not, what engines?

2. An interim engine for 2010 – 2012 inclusive

FOTA's alternative to spec engine. Rev limiting the current ones?

3. Interim measures for 2009

My guess is further rev limiting here.

4. Performance differentiators

Equalisation rears its head again.

Chassis
1. Common parts

The one that screams out to me as a common part is the survival cell.

2. Other measures to reduce costs

Aero cuts? Homologation?

3. Performance differentiators

Looks like a euphemism for equalisation to me.

Race Procedures
1. Measures to reduce the cost of going racing

Don't know what they will suggest but I'd like to see a personell taken to races cap.

2. Facilities available to teams

Hmm ... FPA style single hospitality system?

3. Pit lane layout

Giving each team less garages?

Bert, I imagine giving Judd the contract (if they submit a tender) would be one of the least worst options as they aren't a manufacturer. And there's the GV5 ... 5 litre V10

[bjohnsonsmith]

Ilmor were owned by Mercedes but not anymore. In 2002 Daimler-Chrysler increased its share to 55% and renamed the company Mercedes-Ilmor. In 2005 after the death of Peter Morgan, Daimler-Chrysler became the sole owner of Ilmor and renamed the company Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd.

In 2005 Mario Illien with Roger Penske purchased the Special Projects part of Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd, which had a contract to supply Honda for the IRL. This new company, which is totally independent of Mercedes, is again known as Ilmor Engineering Ltd. Ilmor also designed the Aurora Oldsmobile engine for the fledgling IRL. So Ilmor could be in the running and certainly have the pedigree but I can't see Ferrari ever putting the Prancing Horse on someone elses engine.

[Marbot]

Max's letter to the FOTA.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71629

And full agenda for tomorrows meeting (as posted earlier).

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...a_meeting.aspx

Here's interesting!

"The FIA would like to see a modern high technology power train in 2013. We envisage a down-sized DI engine with exhaust energy and heat recovery, coupled to an electrically actuated gearbox."

[Sodemo]

Whats a DI engine? Diesel Injection?

[bdwoody]

DI isn't that direct injection a bit like vw fsi or are we going to get some kind of green car made of paper and running on the left overs of the local chippy..

[Teretonga]

One company gets the design tender and a contract to produce engines to the spec.
Engines are availble to teams at a set price along with the rest of the drive train. It is a commercial proposition.

Teams may build their own engines to the design, but the technical specs and material specs remain the same, so the only advantage is that they are yours and carry your name... but the spec is the same as everyone elses. Parts obviously would be interchangeable.

This would be like Cosworth building a DFV in the late 60's/70's and Ferrari, Honda, Matra and Yamaha making an exact exact copies.... legally, no copyright.

Parts for chassis, wings, underbody, suspension corners (wheels, brakes, uprights, even wishbones? driveshafts, couplings etc) all common.
One common survival cell/tub? (easy to have common suspension if it all comes out of the same workshop....)
Body work variations and colours(!)

Go back to the kit car era of the 70's and it isn't far from what they did then although they all made their own monocoques. Its easy to see where and why Max got his ideology from....

He was a director of March in the 70's....

[Marbot]

At least Max doesn't want KERS to be standard.He sees it as being relevant technology as opposed to 'old hat' and irrelevant technology like high revving engines and F1 specific aerodynamics.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71627

[Bononi]

And why anyone would think that all this will come into effect just the way this man is planning ?

[Dutton]

I'm rather assuming this proposal is just intended as a vehicle to get FOTA to work out the future of the non-spec engine formula for F1.

[Steve Carter]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

One company gets the design tender and a contract to produce engines to the spec.
Engines are availble to teams at a set price along with the rest of the drive train. It is a commercial proposition.

Teams may build their own engines to the design, but the technical specs and material specs remain the same, so the only advantage is that they are yours and carry your name... but the spec is the same as everyone elses. Parts obviously would be interchangeable.

This would be like Cosworth building a DFV in the late 60's/70's and Ferrari, Honda, Matra and Yamaha making an exact exact copies.... legally, no copyright.

Parts for chassis, wings, underbody, suspension corners (wheels, brakes, uprights, even wishbones? driveshafts, couplings etc) all common.
One common survival cell/tub? (easy to have common suspension if it all comes out of the same workshop....)
Body work variations and colours(!)

Go back to the kit car era of the 70's and it isn't far from what they did then although they all made their own monocoques. Its easy to see where and why Max got his ideology from....

He was a director of March in the 70's....

That to me Teretonga sounds like the thought process in Mosely's intention - it wont stop say Ferrari or BMW or whomever developing their own power plant as long as it sticks to the standard blueprint - but in essence doesnt that mean nothing has changed - we currently have a 2.4 litre V8 spec engine as it is - Im confused - or is it someone like Illmor will do the 'standard' engine like a Cosworth and supply independant teams with these and the majors (manufacturers) will do their own thing under the guidelines set. Illmor is a Penske owned operation now - now Id heard some many many months back that VW were going to enter F1 (with the blessing of Porsche obviously) and that Penske was the supplier of power plants via Illmor for the entry - strange as it may seem it could be a credible rumour - and that Penske were also behind Porsche' move back to Le Mans in the LMP1 league - who knows I guess we shall have to wait and see

[davyboy]

My understanding of Max's proposal is this :

o One organization selected to be the F1 Engine Company, let's say its Cosworth.

o Cosworth design and publish the spec engine/powertrain blueprint. The spec. will also include performance characteristics.

o Cosworth manufacture and build the spec. engine/powertrain unit and sell/lease it to F1 teams.

o Any other organization is allowed to manufacturer spec. engine/powertrain units according to the blueprint, but they will be policed by Cosworth to ensure that they conform to the spec. in full, that includes performance compliancy.

In laymans terms, you can buy an engine from Cosworth, or you can build one according to their spec. and submit it to them to ensure its fully compliant [including power output]. What the latter would offer is questionable, unless it was to reduce costs further again [e.g. Judd built motors as opposed to Cosworth built].

Badging motors according to car manufacturers would seem an expensive waste of time, if the IP rights even allow that in the first place. It would appear to shift the emphasis onto the car construction.

So long as it doesn't turn out to be a diesel, electric or some form of hybrid rubbish, I think its a good thing.

[GORDON STREETER]

My idea of actually freeing up the regulations and letting teams build what they like but limiting the fuel with no stops would work. It would also make the designers realy get into making fuel efficient engines and cars !

[Lotusonpole]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

My idea of actually freeing up the regulations and letting teams build what they like but limiting the fuel with no stops would work. It would also make the designers realy get into making fuel efficient engines and cars !

I like it Gordon.
I bang on a bit about how I miss freedom to the designers, but this gives them back that freedom. And by limiting fuel and stops it sort of controls itself and the hardware has to be fuel efficient.

Cheers
Peter

[Greenback]

My guess is Audi/VW is backing Max Mosley's plan for F1

[Lotusonpole]

Originally Posted by Greenback

My guess is Audi/VW is backing Max Mosley's plan for F1

Hi Greenback
but can you see Mercedes and BMW signing up for engines made by Audi, never mind the Renaults, Hondas and Toyotas of this world?

I doubt it somehow.

Cheers
Peter

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Lotusonpole

Hi Greenback
but can you see Mercedes and BMW signing up for engines made by Audi, never mind the Renaults, Hondas and Toyotas of this world?

I doubt it somehow.

Cheers
Peter

Hi Lotusonpole

No way it will happen. They would be leaving F1 instead.



I'm sorry.

[Lotusonpole]

No way it will happen. They would be leaving F1 instead.

I agree Bononi.

The whole point of the manufacturers getting involved in the first place was to show the world how good 'they' were at making cars, embracing technology via sport and all the associated excitment and glamour.
Great PR.

I don't think it has any credibility whatsoever if, for example, Mercedes or BMW were to win a race without anything they have made or designed themselves or at least been heavily involved with. Same for Ferrari too.

Cheers
Peter

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

He was a director of March in the 70's....

As it happens, Max Mosley was a co-founder as well as comercial director of March. Interestingly, the works Formula 1 team was originally set up around Jochen Rindt and his manager Bernie Ecclestone was going to be March's Team Principal. However, Rindt decided against joining March and remained with Team Lotus.

March set themselves up not only to race cars but also sell customer cars. Their first F1 car, the March 701 was raced as a works car as well as a customer car, probably the most famous example being raced by Tyrrell in the hands of Jackie Stewart. It was modified by Tyrrell designer Derek Gardner. So even back then Max was into specing and customer modification and pals with Bernie; nothing changes.

[Tehillim]

It looks like Mosley was just putting the frighteners on:-

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71638

Not too bad really, can't say I'm particularly bothered about KERS becoming standardised.

[duke_toaster]

Increased engine life : great idea.
25 engines for 10 million euros : Sensible idea.
Mathematics : Let me think. Eighteen races / three races per engine = six engines per car.

Six engines per car * 2 cars per team = Twelve engines per team in races.

Let's say there will be three that go BOOM! during a weekend, that leaves ten engines for testing. Something seems a bit aloof here.

Spec KERS is a sensibleish idea for costcutting.