Do you really know the Safety Car Rules

[JimW]

Yes Bob, sorry I shifted you across the pond. I must confess that I don't know of any UK series (as opposed to FIA running here) except ASCAR, but may just be showing my ignorance.

I'm not happy about radio for this sort of thing. Partly technical limitations - few are really reliable without serious money and infrastructure. Also who says "safety car".

I don't see why drivers should not be expected to see/react to flags.

But in any case we are both talking about the best way to provide an environment without avoidable risk.

Regards

Jim

[Flagman]

A possible simple solution to the problem of indicating to the drivers that a B&Y/SC situation is happening is to have a flashing yellow light on the starting gantry whilst the intervention period in in progress and to instruct the drivers that they should not slow down to 50 immediatly but to do so in a controlled and safe manner.

B&Y can work - a good example was in the FF race at Oulton on Saturday - the field slowed down nicely, bunched up nicely, did really slow laps under the B/Y to reduce the number of lost laps and then resumed racing for a mad dash to the finish. Even Mrs Flagman was impressed as she was on the post that had the incident that bought of the B/Y (car in gravel) especially as once the race resumed another car deposited itself in the same hole in the gravel as the one that had been extricated from - driver of extricated car was also quite relieved

[Stoowert]

Help me up on my soapbox again, please, thanks!
Until the MSA forces circuits to install land lines, this is going to keep happening. Can I sugest a cheaper alternative? How about a bell on each post? 2 rings for Black/yellow, 3 for S/C and one long ring for red? Just a thought!

[neil_davidson2]

Having thought some more about this in general - why don't we throw the SC boards away and just use the B/Y as the "Safety Car Flag"?

That would save the (all too frequent) solo flaggy from having to fumble around for the board, and then trying and balance that along with the yellow. And would also address EPWs concern about saving the Yellow to indicate where the actual incident(s) are.

In terms of the concerns Bob raised about knowing when you're going back to green after a B/Y rather than a safety car, how about a green displayed at startline and then at each post WD until you reach the pack. The green is withdrawn at each post as the pack passes and racing recommences as you cross the line?

Just a couple of ramblings... and by the way I heard a rumour on saturday that the B/Y is going to be abandoned at the end of this season with a return to throwing the red instead. I've not seen/heard any official confirmation of this yet though.

[JimW]

Having thought some more about this in general - why don't we throw the SC boards away and just use the B/Y as the "Safety Car Flag"?

Interesting. Perhaps because the behaviour required of drivers is a bit different? How about a "50" speed restriction sign, perhaps with flashing yellows. LED signs are really bright now and you would not need one at every post. The danger area is covered by yellows.

I would prefer the flag/board thing to be the other way round. Many circuits have the SC boards hinged to the post (or other permanent structure) so it is much easier for the flag marshal to swing it out into position and then be free to concentrate on other things (their safety, the incident, overtaking, the crowd, the observer's guide dog etc.)

Jim

[neil_davidson2]

Originally posted by JimW
Interesting. Perhaps because the behaviour required of drivers is a bit different?

The assumption I made here was that the drivers would know if they had a SC or were working under "standard" B/Y regs - but I take your point.

Originally posted by JimW
How about a "50" speed restriction sign, perhaps with flashing yellows. LED signs are really bright now and you would not need one at every post. The danger area is covered by yellows.

I like the idea of the LEDs (or other technology) but does this open us up into a whole new topic about replacing flags with something more high tech? All flaggies please note - I said replacing Flags not Flaggies - I think it's absolutely vital that flaggies are positioned around the track. Question is - Can button operated lights replace flags?

[Bob Pearson]

The question of button operated lights replacing flags, Silverstone do this on test days but I haven't inspected the system closely, I would imagine it is a broad brush affair and not isolating the yellow area to the minimum length possible.

[JimW]

Donington has flashing yellow lights at every post operated from Race Control along with the cameras. Normally used in conjunction with the operation of snatch vehicles but also when something catches their eye in Race Control or when the Observer requests them.

I'd be interested in the reactions of any drivers to the Doniongton lights. From the seat of a Rescue Unit I don't think either the siting or the technology is very good. If we could rely on having enough flag marshals and on drivers obeying the yellow flags, I would do without these lights. But neither is the case, I am afraid, so I can understand why they are there.

<Veers off topic>
Having once been driving a snatch vehicle engaged in removing a car from the gravel and having another car then strike the car we were removing, I have very mixed views about the whole process. I was quite safe, but my crewman was exposed and the IO who was assisting us was struck by the car. The second driver had a bigger and wider range of nasty angular things to hit. (He got away with no injury and an early bath from the weekend, the IO was unhurt, I am crewman were almost speechless with rage!) Personally I would abolish snatch except under S/C or B/Y on the grounds of unnecessary danger.

<Dives back to the topic>

Spa has a very neat Red, yellow, green system controlled from their camera room using a PC and mouse. Neat and good for track days.

Regards

Jim

[Bob Pearson]

I agree with you about abolishing snatch Jim. We don't like it because, in the case of single seaters it often inflicts expensive damage resulting from where the rope is tied and the direction it is pulled.
Saloons etc have eyes attached to the shell capable of withstanding towing, the only part of a single seater that can be used for that is the roll-over hoop.
I often wonder whether you guys are given any guidance on how to move a single seater, what parts can withstand load and what parts will simply bend and soak up your efforts.
I have over the years seen some quite silly attempts by marshalls to move cars which I have vacated and when I have stopped them and tried to show them how to move it their reaction has often been "it's all right for you, you know how these things work".
As for the Donnington lights, maybe there is a problem with their visibility, I didn't know they had them. In fairness to Donnington BARC don't usually operate sntches ( or maybe I'm not noticing that either.)

[neil_davidson2]

First off the lights at Silverstone are used pretty much the same way as described for Donnington. They are generally there to augment the flag signals when covering snatches/warning of big lumps of debris - and arn't at every post.

Now - to snatch or not to snatch...

First thing I have to say is if you don't want it snatched then don't put it in the gravel.

However accepting that there will be circumstances beyond your control I agree the only surefire way of snatching a single seater is thru the rollhoop and from above via a JCB. However there isn't always a JCB available and trying to snatch with a landrover using the rollhoop can often lead to the car being pulled over especially if it is in the gravel or has less than the usual number of wheels. So we hook up to something lower down generally around the suspension.

So the alternatives are to leave the thing where it is for the duration of the race and hope no-one ploughs into it. Or as Jim suggests only snatch under B/Y or safety car which runs the chance of never completing a full racing lap due to muppetry behind the wheel. Actually maybe both of those options would encourage people to stay on the track and keep off our gardens...

[Bob Pearson]

I notice a couple of you have taken the position that we shouldn't find our way into the gravel or whatever.
You have to remember that if all we wanted was to drive about knowing that we are safely within our limit then that desire can be filled driving to work each morning.
I feel sure that the uncertainty of how each race will unfold, including the question of whether we will still be upright at the end is part of the attraction.
Bearing all that in mind, you have to accept the fact that you will receive unscheduled visits just as we have to accept that we will get to meet a couple of you. It comes with both of our jobs.

[neil_davidson2]

Bob, that comment was firmly tongue in cheek - I just couldn't find a suitable smiley!

Racing would indeed be incredibly boring if you weren't trying to find out where the limits were - and if we just wanted to be spectators then we'd have stayed that side of the fence...

I just noticed the second thread you started on this subject so I'll switch over there for future postings!

[james tucker]

do marshall's believe pace/safety cars should be used in qualifying?......

[Woolley]

Can't imagine why. I can only think it would bunch the cars up and ruin everybody's laps. I'd imagine you'd just slow through the flagged area and practice the rest of the lap (if you need to) or pop into the pits for whatever you would pop into the pits for. When it's clear, you're ready to go for it again. Providing the drivers take care where there are marshals trackside, we're all happy? I know I am.

[james tucker]

At Brands /green flag/ qual starts /1 lap in /car in at paddock/red flag.........
if pace car had gone...no time would be lost out of race/
keeping timetable of day upto scatch......1/2 hr for two drivers to qual.....