The CART-IRL Split

[Jay]

ok....

Originally posted by a guy who thinks he's a doctor
Baron has it figured out, but Jay is no longer worthy of a response. He just wants to keep his attacks personal and has not once addressed the issues. Instead of engage in debate, he just wants to make it about anything but the facts, so troll away jay.

Oie! I believe I was here first guy, but it is a public forum . And what do you want me to do? Write a long essay about how great Cart is? Or how I don't like oval racing? Or why everyone on earth should listen to my opinion?

Again, said it before will say it for the umteenth time, I don't care if you think Cart is doomed... or what you like to do to people's ***es in your spare time... (a reference to things you and Beer Belly posted in this thread...no imagination required) You keep saying all you want to do is enjoy racing...you say that you are a racing fan...yet you **** all over a racing series you claim to love... You say that you only hate the management...not the drivers, teams or officials... well...last time I checked Cart, as a corporation included all of the teams, officials and management. Also, you complain about a lack of American drivers in Cart...so you obviously are not too fond of the drivers...and they are hired by the teams...so you obviously aren't too fond of them either...

[JPBeltoise]

Originally posted by Dr. Austin

I never said i had an answer for it, but i certainly don't want quotas or bans. I'de like to see good american kids get more opportunity. I'de like to see US companies get behind US drivers like the Brazillians with their guys. Does that make me a racist?

Certainly not -- or, if it does, then I'm a racist, too, because I would also like to see more American corporate support for promising young American drivers. However, I'm still not sure that the prominence of Brazilians in CART has all that much to do with Brazilian sponsorship. Other than Tony Kanaan's Hollywood sponsorship, weren't all the Brazilian drivers in CART last year supported by American companies? Consider:

Bruno Junqueira -- Target
Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves -- Marlboro c/o Philip Morris North America (unless I'm mistaken)
Christian Fittipaldi and Cristiano de Matta -- K-Mart
Roberto Moreno -- Visteon
Mauricio Gugelmin -- NexTel (or whatever that communications company is -- I'm going by memory)
Max Wilson -- B2B.com

Perhaps some of these drivers brought some personal sponsorship along, too, although I'm not aware of it, but certainly the title sponsors for each of these American teams is an American company. And since most of these companies are not particularly dependent on the Brazilian market, the only logical conclusion is that these drivers were chosen primarily on the basis of talent. So my analysis of all this is that Brazil, to its credit, has made open-wheel road-racing one of its most beloved sports (ever since the days of Emerson Fittipaldi) and now seems to produce talented young drivers (in karting and the lower formulae) by the bushel. And these drivers are in turn willing to leave their homeland and head off to Europe, and then to perhaps to the USA, to learn their craft and pursue their dreams. So I can't fault them -- or those who hire them -- for reaping the benefits of their talent, sacrifice, and hard work (any more than the IRL should be faulted for developing a successful open-wheel racing series while CART mis-manages itself into oblivion, I might add). I would agree that some of them rather overdo the crying-into-the-Brazilian-flag routine when they win, though.

We may just have to face the fact that, in the same way that the Nordic countries produce rally drivers, because of the popularity of that sport in those countries, and the USA produces stock car drivers, most (but not all) of the talented young road racers are going to come from Europe and South America (and maybe the Pacific rim as well) until the American public really gets seriously interested in open-wheel road racing. And, as far as how we can make that happen -- as you have said yourself, I never said I had an answer for it...

[Dr. Austin]

Thanks, JP. A nice civil response that sticks to the racing is a good lesson that is probably going to be sadly ignored, but I got your message and you make alot of points that are hard to dispute.

Alot of the Brazillians originally came here on Marlboro money. Christian Fittipaldi did. And they don't take your marlboro money away unless you switch brands. Take a good look at some of these guys uniforms for a better answer. Of course, we never get to see CART driver's uniforms because they are off the air long before the winner can get out of the car.

With all that has gone on with the fittipaldis and Marlboro, it is hard to believe they aren't supporting Christian. Both Christians.

Kannan and Mo both bought their way in with hollywood money. Both the Penske drivers had Marlboro money when they got here.

Hard to have a problem with junky as he is the F-3000 champion. But Chip has an American sponsor that doesn't support American drivers. When push came to shove, Junky stayed and Memo is on the street. And Memo really did enough to deserve to keep his ride. And don't think Bruno is going to hang around if some backwater F-1 team gives him an offer. Come to America and push americans out of their jobs. then leave when something "better" comes along. On the other hand, who knows how long Bruno will even have a drive here. The CART death watch
is gaining momentum pretty quicky.

But Chip has got too many drivers. So forget about Target seeing any of my money. they had a chance to step up to the plate and tell Chip to wave the flag, but, no. So, that's what I say to Target. NO. And K-mart. K-mart had the Andrettis. they let that turn to dust and got behind a Brazillian instead when alex Baron and Memo gidley were available. So long K-mart. With CART swirling down the bowl, the sewing is complete, but the reaping is going to be hell.

And Marlboro? So PM NA is an american company? They aren't insisting on American drivers, but don't expect the death merchants to be loyal to anyone. They are going to be gone soon, but they have stained and shamed us for way too long. All the cigarette companies. And the rest of the whores in racing who sold out to them. No one give me the spheel about them supporting racing. That is utter BS of the first magnitude. They have nowhere else to pimp their cancer and death. They don't care if you suck smoke, choke on your own blood and die, in fact, they know it is going to happen, but just like in CART, bucks first. Need a light?

PM had the chance with Alex Baron. But he was replaced by, you guessed it, a Brazillian. Baron was with Penske when the cars were slow and on goodyears, so he never got a fair chance.


I was hoping that after 9/11, some of america's new found patriotism would spill over into American business, but nothing much matters except more bucks.

[Craig]

As I've stated in another topic... time to cut out the personal insults guys - that's not what this forum is all about.

[mac]

As for the Brazilians and their Brazilian tobacco money, Hollywood is the only major Brazilian tobacco company to sponsor CART, and they have been supporting Brazilian drivers (Gugelmin, Kanaan and Garcia) for years. Gugelmin was a proven F1 driver and Kanaan was the IndyLights champion. I'd say the only one who had his drive paid for was Luiz Garcia Jr, and he's gone now. And Hollywood will be paying for Giaffone's drive in the IRL this year.

As for Fittipaldi, Marlboro may have funded his introduction to CART, but at that stage, he had performed very well in F1 in attrocious cars and thoroughly deserved his drive. Whether he still does is another story.

Let's look at the credentials of CART's Brazilians:
- Cristiano da Matta: IndyLights champion & multiple race winner.
- Christian Fittipaldi: impressive F1 performances. Not much to crow about lately.
- Mauricio Gugelmin: former F1 driver and impressive junior formulae driver. Struggling last year. Probably without a drive this year.
- Bruno Junqueira: International F3000 champ, & I think he deserves to keep his Ganassi seat.
- Tony Kanaan: IndyLights champion and proven CART performer.
- Roberto Moreno: proven driver in many formulae, including F1 & CART.

Of these guys, I feel Fittipaldi and Gugelmin are the only guys who maybe don't deserve a seat (and Big Mo's as good as gone).

I've never really been convinced on Herta, and don't feel he has any automatic right to be in CART.

I also think Chip has done the right thing in keeping Bruno. Gidley definately deserves a drive in CART, but I feel Bruno should stay with Chip in 2002.

[Bad Dog Racing]

> Or do you trust the man who was raised from childhood to be the guardian of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, it's sanctity and traditions?

Really Dr. Austin, are NASCAR and F1 part of the sanctity and tradition of Indy? I think not. I hope one poster was right and the RIL is road racing in a couple of years. I don't really car who "wins" this fight, I just want to see the cars turn right occasionally. If I recall correctly, that's something TG doesn't support. Hope I'm wrong about that.

[The Beer Baron]

Bad Dog, while CART is having difficulties, the crowd turnouts at the road course evnts are still quite strong, whereas the ovals for both series still have to cut it financially, if road racing is neglected , then the sport is denying itself a lot of revenue!

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
...if road racing is neglected , then the sport is denying itself a lot of revenue!

If the IRL goes somewhere other than ovals, ISC will bedenying itself a lot of revenue. That's the main reason for GrandAm turning into a roval series lately - most of the tracks owned by ISC are ovals. Also, if it is going to be like the Winston Cup, with two lonely road races on an otherwise all-oval schedule, then what's the use, really.

It was the greatest asset CART had, the diversity. But now that it is going downhill, we will likely see a split between oval racing and road racing, and the ALMS may well become the premier road racing series in North America.

[JPBeltoise]

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
Thanks, JP. A nice civil response that sticks to the racing...

Thanks, Dr. Austin (if you're still around...) And likewise.

And Marlboro? So PM NA is an american company? They aren't insisting on American drivers, but don't expect the death merchants to be loyal to anyone. They are going to be gone soon, but they have stained and shamed us for way too long. All the cigarette companies.

I believe I read once that Louis Stanley, who introduced Marlboro to racing to sponsor his BRM F1 team back in the early 1970's (when the real Jean-Pierre Beltoise drove for them, in fact!), later claimed that was the biggest mistake in his entire racing career.

[Dr. Austin]

[i]Originally posted by Bad Dog Racing

I just want to see the cars turn right occasionally. If I recall correctly, that's something TG doesn't support. Hope I'm wrong about that. [/B]

Tony has said from the beginning that there would be one or two road races down the road for the IRL. It will be hard for Tony not to race at Road America or Mid O if the dates become available.

As far as stockcars being part of the tradition of the Indy 500, what do you think the early races were? And F-1? What could be a better place to have the USGP? The Indianapolis Motorspeedway has races from all the major racing series except the ALMS, and that is rumored to be in the works. The place is just too great to only have one race. And it cost too much money to maintain and upgrade. So extra races are not only a bonus for the big event hungry fans, they are a bonanza for the speedway itself. Everyone wins.

[Bostrom155]

Indycar in 1995 was equal to NASCAR and packed them in everywhere they went. Its too bad that greed and stupidity have ruined open wheel racing in America. Even worse none of the powers that be seem to have learned any lessons, they are still crawling along while NASCAR continues to soar. The IRL is just a futile attempt to copy NASCAR, but NASCAR fans have rejected it completely. CART still has the formula that works: road, street, and ovals but they havnt had any kind of leadership to lead them through the tough times. Also they have thrown away the only thing that seperated them from their low budget brothers of the IRL, their high performance Turbo race cars. Both series deserve to die a horrible death, maybe from the ashes something that is worthwhile will be born.

[botsquad]

Originally posted by KC
I am rapidly becoming less and less of a fan of Indy Car/CART racing because I am tired of the ever present ****.

right on.

and....if race attendence and tv ratings are any indication.
just about every other motor racing fan agrees.

[Derek P]

I must admit that the CART/ IRL split has destroyed IndyCar racing as I know and love it, I didn't even bother watching the Indy 500 from 96-2000 purely because the CART teams weren't there. Prior to the split Indy Car was thriving, good racing seemingly happy manufacturers and sponsors and decent tv ratings, since 1996 its all gone wrong for both. And the reason why AMerican drivers were being overlooked for Brazilians, canadians and ex F1 drivers is simple- the home grown talent isn't good enough!!! Thats why the IRL is largely populated by 2nd rate drivers that couldn't succeed in CART. I was thrilled to see the CART regulars plus Tony Stewart show up the IRL's best for what they are ie rubbish and am quite sure that Penske will walk away with this years championship. But the only way to repair the damage is to unify the 2 series and frankly can't see how that's going to happen, if CART stopped and the teams moved across to IRL I don't think that the bulk of the IRL teams would survive and once again most of the AMerican drivers wouldn't get anywhere, plus it would only be ovals which would get boring every week